prostitution

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
THIS is what happens when people like corbyn decide what is 'best' for prostitutes.

Oh, the irony! Corby hasn't "decided" anything at all - he's taken the radical step of actually asking groups representing the people who would be affected by this area of legislation what they think would be in their own best interests. I'm reminded of something that happened a year or so ago, when Corbyn mentioned *as a suggestion only* introducing women-only carriages on certain train services as a response to the problem of sexual harassment. A friend of mine, who has a tendency to jump to conclusions and then go off on one rather, went NUTS on Facebook and had a huuuge rant about Corbyn "deciding what's best for women". And yet he'd raised it only as a suggestion and had done so after consulting with a focus group of women on various women's issues. In fact they had suggested it to him. And here was my friend, who considers herself a lefty, laying into the first high-profile British politician in living memory who'd actually just said to members of the public "What problems do you face and how do you think we can address them?"
 

vimothy

yurp
So we have two basic positions:

  1. Sex is the ultimate form of human communion, (perhaps even) something sacred, the human body is not just another commodity, and the selling of sex is an affront to human dignity.
  2. Sex is just another biological function like eating or shitting and if people wish to sell sex of their own free will then it's nobody else's business and any attempt to prevent this is a paternalistic attempt to control women's bodies.

I think that's a good summary of the debate here. The former position corresponds to a kind of 'natural law' understanding of sex that's very hard to get away from completely (which is why the question about how you'd feel about your own daughter doing it is so acute - if they're honest, most people would feel extremely squeemish about it). The latter accords more with contemporary liberal understandings. We're autonomous people, and most of our lives can be described in terms of our free contracting and transacting. Sex has no intrinsic meaning and is ultimately a commodity like any other that people might trade and contract over.
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Like I alluded to earlier, my position on pretty much all issues involving sexuality is essentially 'as long as there is consent and no-one is being harmed, its none of my business', but despite this there's something here that trips me up, which I suppose puts me closer to the first position personally - that the idea of buying sex has always seemed intrinsically wrong to me and its something I never have, nor will I (hopefully) ever do.

So, a question for those advocating decriminalisation.

Whatever about the morals of selling sex - do you think its moral for a man to buy sex?

I don't think it's a relevant question, the conversation should be about safety and basic human rights. I think it's immoral to deny sex workers agency, to deny their status as workers and to implement legislation that makes them more at risk, less able to report abuse, less able to screen clients, and less able to earn their living. Implementing policies which affect the safety of low income workers disproportionately is also immoral.
 
Last edited:

droid

Well-known member
Sure, but Im interested* in the answer, and I do think its relevant as without clients, prostitution wouldn't exist, and its (an average of about) 15% of men who drive this industry.

*Even more interested now youve avoided the question!;)
 
Last edited:

UFO over easy

online mahjong
I don't think it's black and white personally. I don't think morality exists on an absolute scale.

My suspicion of the question comes from its use as a diversion tactic by politicians, religious groups and abolitionists as a way to avoid having a real conversation about sex work, and sex itself. I think you've already acknowledged that there's no way to conceive of those 15% of men simply dropping off the planet so I'm not convinced of the usefulness of the question.
 
Last edited:

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Of course we need to talk about the clients, it's insane not to.
As soon as money enters into the equation you have a power imbalance in any sexual relationship - its no longer simple consent.
 

droid

Well-known member
Well Im not trying to divert anyone's attention away from a real conversation, and I think there's been a decent one here, Im asking in good faith, and I believe it is an important question, because if the buying of sex is immoral, (or less than moral) then this would of course have an impact on the moral view of the selling of sex.

Nothing is black and white and everything is grey, but we all have lines.
 

droid

Well-known member
Of course we need to talk about the clients, it's insane not to.
As soon as money enters into the equation you have a power imbalance in any sexual relationship - its no longer simple consent.

I had a list of questions for you a couple of pages back as well Benny!
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Of course we need to talk about the clients, it's insane not to.
As soon as money enters into the equation you have a power imbalance in any sexual relationship - its no longer simple consent.

You don't have the right to tell other people, especially women, what they can't consent to.

Droid, I get that your question was in good faith. I've explained why I think it's unhelpful.
 

droid

Well-known member
Well, its unhelpful if you are campaigning for one particular viewpoint (which I mostly agree with btw), but I think it is relevant to the wider issue - why people hold particular attitudes in the first place.

I am deeply suspicious of conviction when it comes to social/sexual issues (abortion is another one). I think good decisions and good arguments come from doubt. Basically, (presumptuous as it is) I want to see your work (you too Benny), the moral framework your opinions are based on.
 
Last edited:

droid

Well-known member
Im also interested in this as you never see men campaigning for decriminalisation or social acceptance of prostitution. Even where it is legal Im sure there is still stigma attached.

Now of course, you could claim that this is due to ingrained societal attitudes, but I find it hard to imagine a world when a man would be happy to tell his mother, wife, daughter or girlfriend that they had paid for sex. There is a deeper shame there than simply concern for the neighbour's opinion.
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
I think it's pretty insulting to suggest that work hasn't been done already. Tea and I have both written long posts citing sources which have been systematically ignored by the people here arguing for abolition, who instead prefer to liken sex workers to slaves and deny their agency.
I have questions as to what regulation would look like and how it'd be implemented too. The position I'm arguing for is that we should listen to sex worker lobby groups working in the industry now, and not erase their experience.

To your follow up post - a lot of work is hugely stigmatized, and again assigning sex work a special status in this regard is something that is generally only done by people who themselves think it shameful, who seek to proscribe what constitutes acceptability for others.
 
Last edited:

droid

Well-known member
Well, my intention is not to insult you as I hope you know - but Im not referring to the practical aspects/research end of things, on which both yourself, Benny & others have provided ample food for thought - I'm talking about the moral foundation that underlies your conviction.
 

droid

Well-known member
To your follow up post - a lot of work is hugely stigmatized, and again assigning sex work a special status in this regard is something that is generally only done by people who themselves think it shameful, who seek to proscribe what constitutes acceptability for others.

Just to clarify - Im just making observations amongst friends here, Im not passing judgment on anybody, I dont think anyone has the right to tell anyone what to do with their own body, no matter what their personal opinion on a particular issue is.
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Ok gotcha.
I think writings on consent and the nature of wage labour by sex workers (Google will bring up a lot) are what you should be prioritizing in setting your moral compass to this, that's how I try to set mine.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
As soon as money enters into the equation you have a power imbalance in any sexual relationship - its no longer simple consent.

I think it'd be stretching the definition of the word to breaking point to describe a transaction between a prostitute and a client a 'relationship'.

In any case, in how many genuine relationships is there really absolute parity of economic power? Your position could be used to argue that any marriage between a man who has a paid job and a woman who doesn't - or vice versa - is not a 'consenting' relationship. In fact any relationship in which the two people don't have exactly the same income!

I strongly contest the assertion that there cannot be consent just because money is involved. And no, "but what if the woman is forced into it..." is not a comeback to this, because this is exactly not what anyone is advocating decriminalizing or legalizing.
 
Last edited:

droid

Well-known member
There is a contradiction here though isnt there? That men who would argue for decriminalisation would also never dream of paying for sex themselves.

Thats OK though, I dont think it weakens the argument, because, like drugs, the argument should be based on minimising harm.

But still.
 

droid

Well-known member
Ok gotcha.
I think writings on consent and the nature of wage labour by sex workers (Google will bring up a lot) are what you should be prioritizing in setting your moral compass to this, that's how I try to set mine.

Not unreasonable.

Now Tea - what about you?
 
Top