Choon of the Day
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CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Ran late.
Basically the fundamental problem with Wu-Tang was that they weren't supposed to exist as a group. This story has been told and informed in many incarnations but it essentially goes like this:
When Wu-Tang was organized it was initially dependant on the idea that their group organization would serve more as a vehicle for solo deals in the model of the Juice Crew (with Rza as the Marley Marl ofc; thus making Gza Craig G, ODB their Biz and you can keep extending the metaphor here but I'll get bored). To understand the structure it goes like this:
I know people will protest this, but its not a form of ranking but rather indicative of the hierarchy within Wu-Tang. Killa, Dirty, Deck and Meth were essentially acts to develop by Rza and Gza as a focus group who they knew could sound good on record. A lot of the 3rd tier was brought in as 'muscle' for shows and because they sounded good on record but weren't necessarily people they thought would get deals. At the time of debut, Deck was definitely thought to have more value and commercial potential than Raekwon or Ghostface and Masta Killa was essentially Gza's disciple and protege (who had most of his material written for him by Gza himself at the beginning stages). In fact the majority of material for the whole group at the initial stages and for the majority of the debuts that saw the light of day in the early years (the exceptions being Rae and Ghost) was in fact written by Rza and Gza or at least edited by them from the 2nd tier artists freestyling.
Another aspect which is more rumor and hearsay territory is that in the formulation of Wu-Tang Clan a lot of people were brought in and out of the studio sessions who later became affiliates such as Killah Priest, Shabazz The Disciple and even people who maintained distance from them such as Freestyle of The Arsonists (who's actually kin to the Diggs brothers). If you listen to a few of their stories, guys would deliver their verses, return, and hear Raekwon reciting their verses over and shrug it off on some favor shit because the general idea was to comprehensively get Wu-Tang Clan as an umbrella over so that everyone could potentially eat down the line. So once the group would inevitably splinter after the follow-up album (which was literally how it was planned from the beginning) everyone could start their own new groups and proceed as they saw fit with their administrations. ODB was initially the personal overseer of Sunz of Man, Gza had a full team of producers and artists he was managing (*cough* including my father's group *cough*), Raekwon would eventually found American Cream Team, so on and such forth. Once WTC was concluded as a project, it would be over and done with.
PROBLEM.
No consideration was put into play for the fact that by Wu-Tang Forever, the hierarchies of the group would actually start to be dictated by success, both of the releases and in becoming stars. Raekwon became perceived as a top-tier talent despite not rapping before his inclusion in the group and (if you believe a lot of the popular hearsay) not writing anything by himself. Ghost was the beneficiary of 'business money' from Wu-Tang as well as his own personal success as an artist despite (again if you believe the hearsay) not being an 'actual' talent. Deck and Killa, at one point personal Gza proteges, found themselves put to the side and deemphasized as label politics made them become 'headaches'. Tical was infamously a 'botched' debut that despite great success had resulted in tension between Meth and the Rza/Gza camp. The initial unity had gotten left by the wayside long ago as egos got forged and Rza's initial goals fell apart in that the crew actually didn't need him anymore now that they'd gotten all of their solo money and could establish themselves. Hell some (like Rae and Ghost) had their own team of writers to support their brands! As a result, Rza's control was all but dissolved over the songs and in reality he was already trying to transition to living in LA and removing himself from administrating their careers (especially in the case of Dirty whose personal life was an absolute shit show).
I could go on but I'm already losing too much focus on illustrating the points I'd like and I'm trying to avoid the cliches of say, legitimizing Cappadonna or things like that.
Basically the fundamental problem with Wu-Tang was that they weren't supposed to exist as a group. This story has been told and informed in many incarnations but it essentially goes like this:
When Wu-Tang was organized it was initially dependant on the idea that their group organization would serve more as a vehicle for solo deals in the model of the Juice Crew (with Rza as the Marley Marl ofc; thus making Gza Craig G, ODB their Biz and you can keep extending the metaphor here but I'll get bored). To understand the structure it goes like this:
- 1st Tier (Writing & Creation of records behind the scenes and administration over the group): Rza, Gza, Ghostface* (Ghost had not rapped before Wu-Tang Clan and most of his rhymes along with a majority of the group were in the mold of local Staten Island MCs like Scotty Wotty or Pop da Brown Hornet; Ghost's actual role was as 'treasurer' AKA co-founder and financial backer of the demos via money as a drug dealer. He was included in a lot of the copyrighting, trademarking and other agreements along with Rza and Rza's brother Divine, which is how he sued Rza and won later for rights to release under the Wu-Tang Clan name without Rza's authorial control, which would be the ultimate dissolution of Wu-Tang's mystique in the 00s but that's getting far ahead)
- 2nd Tier (MCs who would be focus projects): Method Man, Inspectah Deck, Ol Dirty, Masta Killa
- 3rd Tier ("Friends" to bulk up the roster to seem more impressive): Raekwon, Ghostface*, U-God (Because the details I'll use on Ghost will probably get protested I'll explain the caveat again; initially, GFK was creatively a 3 but administratively he was a 1)
I know people will protest this, but its not a form of ranking but rather indicative of the hierarchy within Wu-Tang. Killa, Dirty, Deck and Meth were essentially acts to develop by Rza and Gza as a focus group who they knew could sound good on record. A lot of the 3rd tier was brought in as 'muscle' for shows and because they sounded good on record but weren't necessarily people they thought would get deals. At the time of debut, Deck was definitely thought to have more value and commercial potential than Raekwon or Ghostface and Masta Killa was essentially Gza's disciple and protege (who had most of his material written for him by Gza himself at the beginning stages). In fact the majority of material for the whole group at the initial stages and for the majority of the debuts that saw the light of day in the early years (the exceptions being Rae and Ghost) was in fact written by Rza and Gza or at least edited by them from the 2nd tier artists freestyling.
Another aspect which is more rumor and hearsay territory is that in the formulation of Wu-Tang Clan a lot of people were brought in and out of the studio sessions who later became affiliates such as Killah Priest, Shabazz The Disciple and even people who maintained distance from them such as Freestyle of The Arsonists (who's actually kin to the Diggs brothers). If you listen to a few of their stories, guys would deliver their verses, return, and hear Raekwon reciting their verses over and shrug it off on some favor shit because the general idea was to comprehensively get Wu-Tang Clan as an umbrella over so that everyone could potentially eat down the line. So once the group would inevitably splinter after the follow-up album (which was literally how it was planned from the beginning) everyone could start their own new groups and proceed as they saw fit with their administrations. ODB was initially the personal overseer of Sunz of Man, Gza had a full team of producers and artists he was managing (*cough* including my father's group *cough*), Raekwon would eventually found American Cream Team, so on and such forth. Once WTC was concluded as a project, it would be over and done with.
PROBLEM.
No consideration was put into play for the fact that by Wu-Tang Forever, the hierarchies of the group would actually start to be dictated by success, both of the releases and in becoming stars. Raekwon became perceived as a top-tier talent despite not rapping before his inclusion in the group and (if you believe a lot of the popular hearsay) not writing anything by himself. Ghost was the beneficiary of 'business money' from Wu-Tang as well as his own personal success as an artist despite (again if you believe the hearsay) not being an 'actual' talent. Deck and Killa, at one point personal Gza proteges, found themselves put to the side and deemphasized as label politics made them become 'headaches'. Tical was infamously a 'botched' debut that despite great success had resulted in tension between Meth and the Rza/Gza camp. The initial unity had gotten left by the wayside long ago as egos got forged and Rza's initial goals fell apart in that the crew actually didn't need him anymore now that they'd gotten all of their solo money and could establish themselves. Hell some (like Rae and Ghost) had their own team of writers to support their brands! As a result, Rza's control was all but dissolved over the songs and in reality he was already trying to transition to living in LA and removing himself from administrating their careers (especially in the case of Dirty whose personal life was an absolute shit show).
I could go on but I'm already losing too much focus on illustrating the points I'd like and I'm trying to avoid the cliches of say, legitimizing Cappadonna or things like that.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
It really boils down to the battle between the public and the Diggs clan determining value. Deck was someone who on those earliest singles should have been made into a star. He was ready, he was of the present. Him and Meth were ideal projects but while Meth's debut was tampered with by accidents of nature, Deck was blocked by legal issues with his label and constant interference. By the time his debut emerges, he's already missed the boat and because the Raekwon album has emerged and is such a MASSIVE and impactful record, he's already irrelevant. He's utterly deemphasized and powerless in the group and put on the same plateau as U-God, who at the time maybe had one good verse. And he has to share a space and compete with attention with two guys who 3 years prior to 36 Chambers coming out, didn't even rap and whom are higher on the pecking order, richer, more recognizable, more successful than him. Top that with the fact that Rza knows that laboring on an album where he doesn't have any control over when it even comes out is pointless. So Deck's career was aborted before it could even fulfill itself.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Well the reality is Killa's career was aborted really quickly too because Gza couldn't administrate him. Their personalities quickly clashed once the initial success concluded and Gza would instead emphasize Dreddy Kruger (who was, let's face it, even more of a duplicate of Gza than Killa had ever approached) and then try to do things like go into video direction and the artist management. He ultimately proved decent at the former, terrible at the latter (personal bias obviously inferred) and his own career suffered from creative burnout, accerbated by the fact that he'd just written about 6-7 albums for people INCLUDING himself.
craner
Beast of Burden
Tragic though because I always thought Masta was fantastic and in the GZA mold but no way a clone. I can barely remember a Dreddy Kruger verse but remember noting him featuring. What is more intriguing is that GZA gave a whole track to Killah Priest on Liquid Swords, one that some consider the best on the album. Can you explain that?
You realise we have given you a whole thread for this chat, right? You are honored. We all want to discourse on this with you.
You realise we have given you a whole thread for this chat, right? You are honored. We all want to discourse on this with you.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Another accerbation to the group dynamic was that in recognizing people would get deals off of the strength of tangible Wu-Tang affiliation, Rza and Divine both became very very greedy and paranoid. There were people who would often have business independent of Wu-Tang who were either just from Staten Island and maybe had proximity to the Wu-Tang Symbol (which itself was a stylized version of a local gang's graffiti tag) so artists such as King Just or Shyheim found their careers stifled and stagnated by injunctions from Rza demanding he receive percentages if there was arguable Trademark infringement. Solo groups mentored by artists or brought into the fold such as Killa Army would find blood relatives of the Diggs put in to ensure they could receive fair treatment and enforce the authority of their 'benefactors'. This goes back to the Sunz of Man, who were originally descended out of a Killah Priest/Shabazz the Disciple duo called "Disciples of Armageddon" but when Killah Priest got in bed with Rza for a future deal and for exposure, Shabazz opted out and tried to receive his own solo notoriety. It further entrenched the stifling feeling of Rza simultaneously controlling every aspect of this rapidly expanding nexus of rap talent but incapable of maintaining a benevolent leadership due to exhaustion, and the perceived inadequate distribution of funds.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Gza, Cappadonna, Superb... I don't know who's responsible for writing for Ghost of late, if its anyone else so I can't speculate for sure.
Also shit I just saw the new thread.
CORP$EY
no mickey mouse ting
This is too important to languish unread on page 2565 of this thread
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
i accidentally posted things in this thread instead of the rap thread.
luka
Well-known member
disappointing. what a let down. no mystery any more. no santa.
luka
Well-known member
tbh i doubt it's true. the writing styles are all too distinct to be corporate.
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