droid

Well-known member
We've got that anyway. Scottish Labour no longer exists. Scotland is essentially ruled by nationalists who have hardly more affinity for Labour than they do for the Tories.

Politics can change though. this locks it in forever...

...Foooorrrrevvvveerrrr...
 
Last edited:

craner

Beast of Burden
The same shit, short-term arguments about Independence saving Scotland from Tories are cranking up again. That is not the correct point. It's the most stupid rationale of them all.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I, for one, do not believe that Leanne Wood truly desires Welsh independence. Some of the nutters in Plaid do, of course, but she's not nuts.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The same shit, short-term arguments about Independence saving Scotland from Tories are cranking up again. That is not the correct point. It's the most stupid rationale of them all.

What do you think will happen to the SNP if Scotland actually does achieve independence? I mean, if they kept the current constituency system, Scotland would surely be the most egregiously one-party state in the democratic world, wouldn't it?
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Apart from England ;) Joke, sort of.

But in the abstract at least, better to have a one-party state with a pretty decent party, than a multi-party state where all the parties that are ever going to get elected believe a narrow variant of the same thing, locked into an eternal Thatcherism? I'd need to read the SNP manifesto in more detail, but the headline policies look decent and they have a good few excellent MPs from what I've seen.

As to whether Scottish independence would work economically...while there's no clear consensus, it doesn't seem a propitious time for it. Plus we all know that the conservatively-minded English are the pettiest people on the face of the earth, so they would stop at nothing to try to hobble an independent Scotland.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
The same shit, short-term arguments about Independence saving Scotland from Tories are cranking up again. That is not the correct point. It's the most stupid rationale of them all.

Why though? Of course it can't be the only rationale, but why wouldn't it form a part of any decision about independence?

And we're not talking about any old Tories right now - this lot flagrantly don't care if they lead the UK into total disaster as long as they make their ideological point. Why wouldn't you want to run a million miles from that if you could, if the economic case is strong enough (which of course is the moot point)?
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I have no idea what would happen to Scotland, my point is the same one I've been banging on about for years. A vote for independence based on the current configuration of party politics is absurd. Even in the context of Brexit. See the triangulation Sturgeon will have to pull when a significant minority of Scots nationalists also happen to be Brexit voters. She'll have similar problems that Labour and Plaid face in Wales.

It's a Nationalist vote, a vote for Nationalism.

Scottish people do not have a genetic left-wing make-up that the SNP is a vessel for. Salmond and Sturgeon's (and Wood's, come to that, she has modelled herself on them) left-wing populism is a mirage, or a con-trick. One day, the SNP will not be the dominant party in Scotland. Who will be then?
 

craner

Beast of Burden
These accusations about "the English" all being "petty" are basically slurs that would not be tolerated in another context.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm sure an SNP-dominated Scotland would be better for Scots than a Tory-dominated England would be (and is being) for the English, though that's not exactly setting the bar very high. As I understand it, the plan a few years ago was for Scotland to become a sort of South Norway with an oil-based economy, but that's been rather hobbled by the tumbling global price of oil. Although Norway hasn't become a third-world country overnight, so I dunno really.

And I don't think the English have a world monopoly on petty-mindedness. I'm reminded of the time Scottish Labour MPs voted in favour of tuition fees for English university students, the pricks. At least that particular loophole will be closed if independence goes ahead. Meaning the English can only get screwed over by English MPs, I guess. Hoo-fucking-ray.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
These accusations about "the English" all being "petty" are basically slurs that would not be tolerated in another context.

But of course. Self-loathing is the one thing we still lead the world at.

Edit: we were leading in the shooting-yourself-in-the-foot stakes recently as well but that all changed in November, ho ho ho!

Edited edit: in fairness baboon did say "the conservatively-minded English" - it has to be said that the Tories in their current state represent a combination of spite and stupidity that's exceptional even by their own standards. With Thatcher you could at least see what she was trying to achieve, and some ordinary people did very well by her even while many others got fucked sideways, but as luka said about this lot, it seems to be a case of "fuck it, let's burn it to the ground".
 
Last edited:

craner

Beast of Burden
The SNP make welfare promises they can only afford because of their devolved arrangement in the current UK. That's what makes them "left wing": delivering things they couldn't if they were independent. Populism based on a favourable arrangement that Wales does not enjoy. The oil gamble is crazy voodoo economics. The economic arguments are ridiculous, the party political arguments are dumb, the Brexit arguments are sketchy and even dubious.

That leaves Nationalism of the Mel Gibson "Braveheart" genre, or the Hugh MacDiamard synthetic, poisonous variety. Great!
 

droid

Well-known member
It's an ethnic slur. But that's OK, apparently, because it's the Eng-er-lish.

Ive heard of this, but never seen it myself. A case of such intense anti-nationalism that the sufferer begins to adopt the most cliched language of the hyper nationalist.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
The Tories haven't won a seat in Scotland for a long time, this is true. But they have come second in plenty of them, which is interesting considering that the Tory brand is so toxic there.

There is such a thing as a Scottish conservative, if not a Tory as such. Labour are dead there. When the SNP decline, the Conservative vote could well increase. In an Independent Scotland that would not be the rump UK Tory party, but a separate entity.

Ruth Davidson seems to be quite popular, while we're at it.

The Independent Scottish Socialist dream is a fantasy.

Sorry to give you the bad news.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Ha, thanks Droid. I was gently poking Baboon on a certain, mild hypocrisy I detected in him. I think it was fair.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
An ethnic slur in alleging that the conservatively-minded English are petty (not all English people, note! Tea actually read the comment....)?! *dies laughing*

There is a brilliant graph from the Spirit Level that I would post here if I had the book to hand. Alas...
 
Last edited:
Top