IdleRich

IdleRich
See above. He cant get in right now, but the Tories will crack one way or another. Either May will compromise on customs union and DUP/Brexiteers will bring her down or she won't compromise and Tory remainers will bring her down as the UK nears the precipice.
I do agree that although May seems adamant she has a track record of switching (eg the "meaningful vote" before Christmas, a shameless one eighty just seconds after promising she wouldn't do that) - her credibility is completely shot. I mean her honesty, obviously it was long ago clear that she was incapable but now she can fairly be described as an unprincipled liar. Which is good cos otherwise, if she's telling the truth here, we are heading for No Deal Brexit.
I don't see the government collapsing before Brexit though sadly, and after Brexit the damage will be too great for Labour to mitigate it, I find Corbyn's fence-sitting strategy cynical and also politically misguided.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
To me, there are two issues; Tories are in power which is always bad but they will face an election every few years and sooner or later they will be out of power; Brexit is coming up and it will (most likely) be forever and it will do more damage (to the economy, to workers, the national feeling, the environment etc) in the immediate short-term than any government. It's obvious which should be opposed right now.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
The other point here is that Labour getting into power after a hard or no-deal Brexit will be absolutely fucked, because any economic fallout from Brexit can be conveniently pinned on Labour's "fantasy economics", "destroying the economy to pursue their green agenda", "taxing businesses into oblivion to give handouts to scroungers" and so on, which scores the double whammy of absolving the hard-right Brexiteers of any sort of blame while simultaneously making remotely left-wing economics toxic for the foreseeable future.

We're screwed, basically.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Also

The Liberal Democrats have said they will not support Labour in future no-confidence votes unless the party backs a second referendum, making it almost impossible that Labour could force a general election.

The Lib Dem leader, Vince Cable, said he did not want to participate in confidence votes that had little chance of success if the aim was to delay Labour endorsing a public vote. He suggested other parties may take a similar view.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
There's not even a majority in commons for a second ref ffs.
I'm not sure that's been tested. And if it's the case then the situation is; no majority for referendum, the vote for no-confidence just got even smaller than yesterday so there is certainly no majority there, there is no majority for No Deal, May's deal dead and buried, and no other deal possible.... so... what? It seems as though parliament has no way to sort this out and it doesn't even have the will to allow any other way of dealing with it. Oh, and the PM is a lying moron. Total fucking gridlock clusterfuck shit storm basically.
 

droid

Well-known member
Dont often agree with jones, but...

What is Labour’s strategy? Let’s take a second referendum. Whatever the leadership decides, it is not even clear that a majority can be found for it. One Labour MP – who resigned from the frontbench in 2016 – tells me that, in a free vote, “the parliamentary Labour party would be split down the middle, possibly [with] even more against. It’s just they aren’t the people on the telly all the time!” In the shadow cabinet, there are those, such as Diane Abbott (the single most influential Labour MP in Corbyn’s inner circle, a point neglected by most commentators for depressing reasons) and Keir Starmer, sympathetic to a second vote, with laudable reasons, too; others, such as Richard Burgon, against; and others, such as John McDonnell, pragmatically straddling the divide. Around 100 Labour MPs were predicted to declare in favour of a second referendum today; in the end, just 71 did so. If half of the parliamentary party voted for a second referendum, that would amount to less than a fifth of parliament; well over 100 Tory MPs would have to support it too. It is really difficult to see this happening, meaning that Labour would risk alienating its leave voters for nothing.

If Labour imposed a three-line whip in support of a referendum, shadow cabinet members representing leave constituencies have told me they will resign. If a referendum becomes the only option left, then Labour will have to campaign for remain, and make a great fist of it. But don’t have any illusions. The campaign will be even more bitter and vicious than the last; the culture war that has enveloped the country will get worse; millions of leave voters will be angered and even more disillusioned than before; and under a slogan of “tell them again”, leave may well win once more. Tory rule is the source of the nation’s ills: wishing to remove this Conservative government – and the only means of doing so is a Labour victory – is not putting “party before country”, it’s an attempt to save the nation from the most calamitous administration since the war. Of Labour’s 54 Tory-held target seats, 41 voted leave. Just 13 opted for remain. Without holding on to its existing leavers and winning over more, Labour cannot win an election, and the injustices that helped lead to the Brexit vote will be exacerbated.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ter-brexit-deal-second-referendum-norway-plus
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Yesterday they held a vote of no-confidence knowing in advance that the numbers were such that they couldn't win. I think a vote on whether or not to have a second referendum in which the numbers are much less clear has at least as much right to be heard.
A second referendum might stop Brexit and for me (as I said) that's the main thing so I have to hope we get the referendum. If Labour don't support the vote for a second referendum they will lose my vote and that of lots of members. Who should Labour be seeking to satisfy first, their target voters in seats they want to win or their actual current members who want another referendum?
 

droid

Well-known member
I guess they'll just have to hope that most voters will put the future of the biosphere, the rights of the poor, sick and disabled, public services, the NHS, education and a less murderous foreign policy ahead of their feelings on Brexit.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Well like I said, I think that Brexit will be bad news for all of the above so they won't have to choose either-or.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Apparently lots of Labour MPs will resign if Corbyn backs a second referendum... I wanna say 'Good - fuck em" but it doesn't help our chances...
 

glasshand

dj panic attack
Tories are in power which is always bad but they will face an election every few years and sooner or later they will be out of power

I think labour would fuck themselves over for another 10+ years or worse fall apart pasokification style if they went fully ahead with backing 2nd ref, which would be the centre-left/liberal/pasok move

I wouldn't have any hope in an eventual inevitable swing back to some sorta centre left govt, nothing seems to point to that in the world atm
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I think labour would fuck themselves over for another 10+ years or worse fall apart pasokification style if they went fully ahead with backing 2nd ref, which would be the centre-left/liberal/pasok move
I wouldn't have any hope in an eventual inevitable swing back to some sorta centre left govt, nothing seems to point to that in the world atm
There is no reason to believe that there will be an election in the near future, if there was there is no evidence that Labour would win it anyway. There is increasing evidence that Remain is more popular than Leave, something like 80 percent (I believe I saw that figure quoted yesterday) of the Labour membership support Remain. I just don't get why some people seem to think that supporting a policy that their membership like and a majority of the country like should be deemed electoral suicide - especially when their tactics so far have failed to get them anything close to a majority against the worst government in living memory.
Quite apart from that there is the moral argument that allowing the country to slide into a disaster that they won't be able to repair just so that they get a chance to lead it can't be the right thing to do.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There is going to be a general election by 2022 at the very latest. It's ludicrous to suggest that trying to force an early election (that Labour is very likely to lose anyway, as Rich says) should be prioritised above at least preventing a hard Brexit - which could be irreversible and which will cause economic devastation that'll make Tory austerity look like a walk in the park - just to avoid upsetting working-class Labour-voting Leavers.

In fact it's exactly the sort of party-before-country mentality that led old pigfucker to call this stupid referendum in the first place.
 

droid

Well-known member
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by Tories,
starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the Brexit streets at dawn looking
for a 2nd referendum.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Just fucking cancel it already. It was all based on a pack of lies by a gang of chancers who broke the law from start to finish.

Not going to happen, of course, but it's infuriating to see these pricks getting away with it.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Glad to be thought of as one of the best minds but yeah I'd rather they just straight cancel the cunt if I'm gonna drag myself through the streets in search of anything.
 

other_life

bioconfused
as someone in the u.s. the words that keep coming to mind re:brexit and also BUILD THAT WALL are "decrepitude" and "senility"
 
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