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Thread: UK EU Referendum Aftermath

  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi View Post
    i'm not sure either , but if it's serious then i worried that we might have a heated political discussion about brexit on dissensus, yikes
    i just don't know what to think about the brexit, but it honestly surprises me that people are proposing a 2nd vote.

    i just don't feel qualified to have a strong opinion on such a complicated matter, myself, didnt vote, and tbh i think this should be a technocratic matter not a democratic one. It shouldn't be down to campaigning and opinion. It's ridiculous to refute my points or for us to "debate" it as neither of us know the details. Certainly for emotional and tribal reasons i'd vote for inclusivity and Remain,

    but it's strange how little empathy and understanding there is on the Remain side for the other PoV
    The whole terms of the original referendum were insane - that a 4% victory under dubious circumstances/duplicitous campaigning could lead to such a drastic change in national direction. I don't know the worldwide comparisons, but surely for something like this at least a 60-40 win should be required to institute such drastic change.

    I agree about this not being a democratic matter, necessarily, given its complexity. Representative democracy inherently contains the idea of entrusting technical decisions to experts, the problem being that the people elected are often idiots and as far from experts as could be imagined. The system is broken (if indeed it was ever fit for purpose), and Brexit may just be an absurdly cliff-edge symptom.

    And I think that is something with which many Remainers/Stayers would agree. The protection of minority groups within a country can never be entrusted to popular vote, and this sound principle has been transgressed here.

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  3. #692
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    The phrase Project Fear still makes me laugh whenever I hear it used seriously. As in the Telegraph, the best-selling comic in the UK. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ooling-nobody/

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    (My point about project fear goes along with the facileness of voting on this vague question, there's lively rhetoric on both sides, which may or may not have anything to do with reality, FWIW i support Cadwalladr all the way)

    I can accept that perhaps there could be a democratic vote on overall direction (though why on this aspect of foreign policy rather than any other policy area, e.g. arms budgets) but that has been totally undermined by the implementation of the vote and the aftermath. A genuine process might have involved looking at the relationship with Europe bit by bit to focus on where change might be needed and achievable, then doing a process to carry out those changes in a non-disruptive way, but this has never been a genuine process

    None of that nice stuff was ever going to happen, this process has been run all the way by Tory and other head-bangers, and i can't imagine that they have pushed it this far without the delivery of the No Deal coup de grace as inevitable next step. Remain have actually never stood a chance.

    also fully agree with my colleague the baboon re minority rights, but it's unpleasant to have to point this out - and shows how difficult it is to challenge remainism without being a fascist

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    So-called Project Fear may turn out to be an exaggeration (or it may turn out not to be sadly) but a future prediction made in good faith is hardly comparable to the 350m, the Turkish stuff etc etc I refuse to believe that you really and honestly think is.
    Don't worry i don't

  6. #695
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    It would be nice to have a popular vote on the upcoming Tory gerrymandering as well.

  7. #696
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    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e_iOSApp_Other

    Well, at least we can say from experience that Putin has always had the well-being of the British public as a top priority.

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    They'll probably get away with this, but they shouldn't - https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brex...th-no-ferries/

    Brexit Minister unable to explain why ’emergency’ loophole was used to give 13.8m contract to ferry firm with no ferries

    The decision to award almost 14 million of government cash to a ferry company which has yet to run a single service remains a mystery, after a government minister dodged the question no less than three times.

    It was revealed last week that Seaborne Freight had been awarded the shipping contract in the case of a ‘no deal Brexit’, as part of contingency plans to ease pressure on the port of Dover. However, the contract wasn’t awarded by a competitive tender process, with the government instead using rules which come into play when “unforeseen events” cause an “extreme emergency”.

    The firm, which plans to run services between Ramsgate in Kent and Osten in Belgium from March, also came under fire after it emerged it doesn’t currently own any ferries, and has yet to run a single service.

    It was later revealed they had copied their terms and conditions from both a food delivery website and an online clothes boutique.

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  10. #699
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    Yeah saw this thing with the ferry company. What the fuck is going on there? I guess they thought that there was so much going on that it wouldn't come any scrutiny. Anyway, the contract they get is only gonna exist if there is a No Deal Brexit right so hopefully it won't matter.
    Big week this week anyway. May still blithering away about how anyone who opposes her vote is undemocratic. Fortunately no-one is listening to her at all, she is leader in name only, completely without anything like authority. I only hope that her defeat on Tuesday is crushing enough to penetrate even her robotic skull and cause some kind of re-think. But fuck knows what is going to happen. Labour are talking about forcing a GE which to me seems to be putting party in front of country. They should fucking sort this shit out from where we are and then work out who is gonna be in charge of what is left. If there is a GE then it's like re-setting the whole thing, we'll be starting from nowhere when we should be right by the end. Fucking hell it's a mess, a joke... I dunno, a disgrace.
    At least the EU are making noises about allowing a delay though I don't see how a few months will change anything when they have been unable to do anything in two years. The only sane option and the only chance to break the deadlock is another referendum so we can probably rule that out....

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    "DUP says Tusk/Juncker letter has heightened its concerns about backstop"
    Brilliant. May manages to squeeze in one last hilarious fuck up before the mega-clusterfuck of being pulverized in tomorrow's vote.

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    pardon my ignorance but is it a thing for MPs to just resign if things aren't going the way they like? isn't it the job of politicians to find ways to solve problems instead of just quit?

    this "my way or the highway" attitude might make for a self-righteous ego boost but isn't a very productive negotiating tactic, trump is proof of that. do any politicians compromise anymore?

  13. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    pardon my ignorance but is it a thing for MPs to just resign if things aren't going the way they like? isn't it the job of politicians to find ways to solve problems instead of just quit?

    this "my way or the highway" attitude might make for a self-righteous ego boost but isn't a very productive negotiating tactic, trump is proof of that. do any politicians compromise anymore?
    Compromise, placing the common good over the personal, problem-solving instead of creating new ones and such is apparently a thing of the past in politics, as it seems.

  14. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    pardon my ignorance but is it a thing for MPs to just resign if things aren't going the way they like? isn't it the job of politicians to find ways to solve problems instead of just quit?
    this "my way or the highway" attitude might make for a self-righteous ego boost but isn't a very productive negotiating tactic, trump is proof of that. do any politicians compromise anymore?
    Depends. If you are a Whip then you are supposed to be loyal to the government and also you are supposed to make other MPs be loyal too. If the government is pursuing a policy that you cannot support then you cannot in good conscience do this job so you must resign from it. Remember when they are resigning they are just leaving their role in the government, they are not stopping being an MP. They are not necessarily even leaving the Tory party so arguably they can still find a way to solve the problem, they will just no longer be a whip. Same goes for cabinet ministers really, if they vote against the government then they will get kicked out of the cabinet anyway so they may as well as resign. Probably before that they do try and find solutions but if there is an issue on which they feel very strongly then when the vote comes they can either vote for it against their conscience or vote against it (or abstain) against their job. At that point there is no third way.

  15. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdleRich View Post
    Depends. If you are a Whip then you are supposed to be loyal to the government and also you are supposed to make other MPs be loyal too. If the government is pursuing a policy that you cannot support then you cannot in good conscience do this job so you must resign from it. Remember when they are resigning they are just leaving their role in the government, they are not stopping being an MP. They are not necessarily even leaving the Tory party so arguably they can still find a way to solve the problem, they will just no longer be a whip. Same goes for cabinet ministers really, if they vote against the government then they will get kicked out of the cabinet anyway so they may as well as resign. Probably before that they do try and find solutions but if there is an issue on which they feel very strongly then when the vote comes they can either vote for it against their conscience or vote against it (or abstain) against their job. At that point there is no third way.
    ah, thanks, that explains it.

    in general terms, though, it does seem politicians today are less inclined to give a little in order to get a little. that's (one of) the big joke(s) about Donald "art of the deal" trump: in the real estate developer world, there are always a million potential deals on the table and if he didn't get everything he wanted out of one deal, he'd just walk out, with the knowledge that one of two things would happen: his opponent would give in for fear of losing out, or trump would just forget about that opportunity and move on to the next one.

    his rude awakening is that politics and governing don't work that way. as we are painfully aware.

  16. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    ah, thanks, that explains it.

    in general terms, though, it does seem politicians today are less inclined to give a little in order to get a little. that's (one of) the big joke(s) about Donald "art of the deal" trump: in the real estate developer world, there are always a million potential deals on the table and if he didn't get everything he wanted out of one deal, he'd just walk out, with the knowledge that one of two things would happen: his opponent would give in for fear of losing out, or trump would just forget about that opportunity and move on to the next one.

    his rude awakening is that politics and governing don't work that way. as we are painfully aware.
    My feeling is that we have a particularly bad set of MPs in the UK at the moment; now I don't know why that is, maybe they are more cynical, perhaps fewer have real world experience, maybe soundbite culture makes their job harder - they are so scared of saying something stupid that can wreck their career if taken slightly out of context that they don't say anything at all - but I do genuinely think that it's not just rose-tinted spectacles that makes me think that most of this lot are worse than even the Tory party of my youth. As John Crace put it today "In a parallel universe, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May might have been an ideal match on a blind date. Both have a flair for the mediocre and instinctively misjudge the mood of the house." And this is highlighted by the fact they have a really difficult situation to deal with... cometh the hour doesn't cometh the (wo)man.
    May in particular has been particularly inflexible (guilty as you charge). It's her red lines that have made the problem to start with and her repeated parroting of (at best) half-truths has undermined everything she said. At the last minute she's looking for compromise but it's too late.
    Last edited by IdleRich; 15-01-2019 at 12:20 AM.

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