UK EU Referendum Aftermath

You could equally say "why doesn't Corbyn put forward a more conciliatory figure, if he really wants this to work?"
Answer being - because that wing of the party fucking hate him and have been held hostage by the headbanger new membership for the last four years.

"I refuse to back any government not led by me".

Totally intractable situation. Corbyn is, on one hand, the leader of the only party which by itself has any chance of stopping the turbo-charged clown car that is the Tory party in 2019. On the other, the only MPs that he can rely on for support are a fraction of his own party and possibly Sinn Fein. And everyone knows that his personal interest in leading government breaks down approximately 0% stopping Brexit and 100% being PM.

World Cup of caretaker prime ministers:

Dear god.

You have a government led by a racist clown that is essentially murdering thousands of poor and disabled people, deporting British citizens to their deaths just because they're brown, hastening climate catastrophe, gleefully participating in widespread slaughter in Yemen, fomenting regional war with Iran, isolating and alienating all of it's local allies, cosying up to a deranged white supremacist, overseeing probably the largest centre of global financial criminality, and now on the verge of bringing economic and social ruin to your entire country just so a few billionaires can get away with avoiding tax - but pretty much the only political figure (flawed as he is) who commands widespread support, opposes these policies and may actually be able to change course is anathema to you for a variety of reasons ranging from the petty to the ridiculous.

Have you ever considered that maybe you guys are part of the problem?

droid said:

Dear god.

You have a government that is essentially murdering 10's of thousands of poor and disabled people, deporting British citizens to their deaths just because they're brown, hastening climate catastrophe, gleefully participating in widespread slaughter in Yemen, fomenting regional war with Iran, isolating and alienating all of it's local allies, cosying up to a deranged white supremacist, overseeing probably the largest centre of global financial criminality, and now on the verge of bringing economic and social ruin to your entire country just so a few trillionaires can get away with avoiding tax - but pretty much the only political figure (flawed as he is) who commands widespread support, opposes these policies and may actually be able to change course is anathema to you for a variety of reasons ranging from the petty to the ridiculous.

Have you ever considered that maybe you guys are part of the problem?

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Think I've found the flaw in your argument.

Look, ignore my personal feelings about Corbyn - objectively, he is not popular, either in Parliament or among the general public.

I could sing the guy's praises from the rooftops and it wouldn't change that.

The best thing Corbyn has going for him is the long list of Johnson's flaws.
I'd like better choices all round tbh.

Also, he doesn't oppose the project that's about to unleash "economic and social ruin". He's in favour of it, which is why he's lost so much support. There's a strong chance he'd try and derail attempts to stop it if in power.

I'd actually agree that Johnson is more objectively evil. Doesn't make me delight in the prospect of a bunch of crank conspiracy theorists in No 10 though.

DannyL said:

Also, he doesn't oppose the project that's about to unleash "economic and social ruin". He's in favour of it, which is why he's lost so much support. There's a strong chance he'd try and derail attempts to stop it if in power.

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Really? When did Corbyn back a no deal Brexit?

DannyL said:

I'd actually agree that Johnson is more objectively evil. Doesn't make me delight in the prospect of a bunch of crank conspiracy theorists in No 10 though.

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Insanity. He's not even on the same planet.

Lets be clear about the proposal here. Cross party backing for a temporary government to hold a general election and prevent no-deal. The idea that two parties which collectively accumulated about 15% of votes in the last election should take precedence over a leader who commands 75% of the opposition is demented.

droid said:

Really? When did Corbyn back a no deal Brexit?

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Actions - and inactions - speak louder than words. Corbyn whipped the party to vote in favour of triggering Article 50 the moment the result was announced - that's not the action of someone who wants to 'explore all options' or who cares what his MPs, his party or the wider electorate want. It took fucking ages for him to come round to the idea of a second referendum, and further ages to agree to put Remain on the ballot, in all likelihood just to stave off any more defections.

I think the Lib Dems suspect that this is just an attempted power grab and that Corbyn has no intention of stopping Brexit or realistically allowing it to be stopped. They may well be right.

droid said:

The idea that two parties which collectively accumulated about 15% of votes in the last election should take precedence over a leader who commands 75% of the opposition is demented.

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A party leader opposed to 70% of that party's voters, about 85% of his party and nearly all of his MPs on the most important issue in a generation is pretty crazy too, when you think about it.

A Labour party led by a wooden spoon with a smiley face drawn on it that was running on a platform of ending austerity, protecting the NHS and opposing Brexit would be grinding the Tories into the dust right now - or rather, would have done so in the election two years ago.

This thing is driving me fucking nuts and taking over my life. Earlier this evening I went into a supermarket and I couldn't find the milk. Walked up to one of the blokes who work there and I started saying "Excuse me, do you know where the Brexit is?" - just managed to stop myself halfway through and prevented being thought of as a proper fuckhead.
I am literally losing my fucking mind.

droid said:

Insanity. He's not even on the same planet.

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There was a nice succinct meme about this, which I would have to find.

I hate Corbyn at this point for his intransigence and his Brexit stance, but the fucking Lib Dems only have a single thing in their favour, and that is a Remain stance. In every other way they are wretched, untrustworthy and awful Tories in rubbish clothing.

It all just gets shittier with every passing month.

Tea, I barely need point this out, but your vision of the 2017 election is fantasy. Lots of people in the UK simply support austerity and other Tory policies - that's why they keep being able to form governments. The result of that election was a triumph up to a point. And Corbyn's approval ratings in 2017 were far higher than they are now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leade...the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2017 I think living and canvassing for Labour (IIRC?) in a place where The Wicker Man is viewed as a romantic comedy may have understandably obscured your perception here.

He is vastly unpopular now, that is true.

IdleRich said:

This thing is driving me fucking nuts and taking over my life. Earlier this evening I went into a supermarket and I couldn't find the milk. Walked up to one of the blokes who work there and I started saying "Excuse me, do you know where the Brexit is?" - just managed to stop myself halfway through and prevented being thought of as a proper fuckhead.
I am literally losing my fucking mind.

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Viral ultrameme in waiting.

baboon2004 said:

Tea, I barely need point this out, but your vision of the 2017 election is fantasy. Lots of people in the UK simply support austerity and other Tory policies - that's why they keep being able to form governments. The result of that election was a triumph up to a point. And Corbyn's approval ratings in 2017 were far higher than they are now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leade...the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2017 I think living and canvassing for Labour (IIRC?) in a place where The Wicker Man is viewed as a romantic comedy may have understandably obscured your perception here.

He is vastly unpopular now, that is true.

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Haha, funny you should bring up my experience in the run-up to the last GE, because I was about to mention it anyway, because it precisely backs up my point. I don't actually live in Incestbury-on-the-Moor, as much as it may seem that way from London. Exeter is a fairly prosperous university city, has had a Labour MP since 1997 and voted Remain in 2016 by a reasonable margin. I went canvassing in mainly Labour-voting parts of the city and I heard, over and over again, that people still like Labour as a party, still like their MP and still want to vote Labour, but don't like Corbyn.

Unfortunately it's true that some Tory voters do really just like austerity - presumably many of these same people are now looking forward to living on rations after Johnson's no-deal Brexit, so they can pretend they're living through a major war - but bear in mind that the Tories still only won 37% of the vote, and that was against a Labour party that was (and still is) essentially in the middle of a civil war. And probably some of these poor sods still thought that austerity was a temporary measure and would one day be lifted when the economy picked up again.

I've been to Exeter several times cos a friends used to live there, and it is pitchfork country (btw, I don't live in London any more, so this is also from a provincial perspective).
Also you are disproving your own point, not proving it, by acknowledging that even those people from the ends of the earth still wanted to vote Labour despite their dislike of Corbyn, so personal dislike is only a single factor and actually not even that important compared to tribalism and policy. Further point is that none of those who were criticising him would have run on that policy platform, so it kinda doesn't matter anyways - and the media would have torn apart anyone proposing an alternative to the ongoing neoliberal consensus (although as recorded far and wide, what Corbyn was proposing was not actually that radical at all, showing how far right the 'centre' has travelled).

Central point being that your notion of a leader with domestic policies similar to Corbyn's not being equally disliked by Exeterians, is a fantasy. They would have hated his equivalents equally - the problem that many people had with Corbyn in 2017 was not the things he's actually done wrong, but that his policies were seen as suspiciously left-wing.

Anyways, look at the link I sent you, and it will show you that you're wrong on this. Corbyn was nowhere near as unpopular as he is now, and in fact was wildly popular among certain constituencies. And he outperformed the centrists of 2015. Even many rightwingers would acknowledge in private that he (and the structures supporting him) played a blinder in that election, totally rearranging the idea that trad left-wing/left-centrist policies are unelectable.

Also, just as a point of interest, did the people you talked to say why they didn't like Corbyn? Suspicion of course is that the personality issue is a cover for the fact that, hey, his policies just don't fit with what those people want. That they only had a Labour MP in 97 tells a similar story.