UK EU Referendum Aftermath

My point was that it's by no means an exceptionally backwards part of the country or hard-Tory/UKIP/BXP territory as far as the eye can see, which is what I took from your 'wicker man' sneering.

I would never call it the most enlightened or cultured place on earth, either. It's just a fairly typical small city.

I said that because I'm tired of the apologising (not in reference to you, but in general) for 'fairly typical' areas in England, Wales etc that are just really backward and monocultural and racist/hostile to difference. I sneer only because I do see that as pitiable in the 21st century (or at any time, but). I would say similar things about other areas of the country too fwiw. And that doesn't mean that there aren't lots of decent people living there too, obvs

I'm honestly at a loss here. You "hate Corbyn" (your words), but you hate him for correct, progressive reasons, whereas everyone else who hates him does so for stupid, reactionary reasons, because they read the Daily Mail or something, even in places where people have voted in Labour MPs for many years? Like, what?

baboon2004 said:

Also, just as a point of interest, did the people you talked to say why they didn't like Corbyn?

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For the most part it was simply his pro-Brexit stance, as far as I remember. We didn't have time to get into an in-depth debate with every person we spoke to, obviously, but I expect if we'd pushed further it would have been the usual complaint list: he supports terrorists, is too sweet on Russia/Syria, has allowed Labour to become a hotbed of antisemitism. All of which are to an extent true.

I strongly doubt anyone would have said "Oooh, I'm a bit worried he might raise taxes for multi-millionaires and fund the NHS properly", as much as you'd like them to have done.

baboon2004 said:

That they only had a Labour MP in 97 tells a similar story.

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So anywhere that hasn't been a stronghold of militant Marxism since time immemorial can be written off as irrevocably reactionary? Fucksake.

Just logged on Twitter, saw the pile ons going on on this very issue and logged off again. What I find so weird about this is - if Labour want to govern, they'll need to be in a coalition (or have a supply and demand arrangement) with LD/Green/SNP - because they're not going to win an outright majority, due in part to the losses in Scotland. So the rows we can see today - and are having here, to a much lesser extent - are a warm up for the next Parliament. Can absolutely see it being next level vitriolic.

Unless of course we get the Johnson horrorshow, which well we might at the current rate. An unprecedented reactionary disaster with the worst cabinet I've ever seen.

It's such a shitshow on every side.

I'm not going to waste any more time on this. We disagree on most things, which is fine. But your tendency to misquote and derail, means it's deeply unsatisfying even having these conversations. I spend my time correcting you on things that you allege that I have said/implied ("So anywhere that hasn't been a stronghold of militant Marxism since time immemorial can be written off as irrevocably reactionary?" Only an idiot or a conversational saboteur would choose to say that in response to what I had said, and I don't think you're an idiot) - it's simply dishonest on your part.

And this smug dismissal - I say this after tens of instances, not just because you have done it once in anger - of anything that doesn't fit your very constricted world view, is infuriating. You're a lot more conservative than you think, in my view (small 'c' intentional).

Fucksake indeed.

Mr. Tea said:

For the most part it was simply his pro-Brexit stance, as far as I remember. We didn't have time to get into an in-depth debate with every person we spoke to, obviously, but I expect if we'd pushed further it would have been the usual complaint list: he supports terrorists, is too sweet on Russia/Syria, has allowed Labour to become a hotbed of antisemitism. All of which are to an extent true.

I strongly doubt anyone would have said "Oooh, I'm a bit worried he might raise taxes for multi-millionaires and fund the NHS properly", as much as you'd like them to have done.

So anywhere that hasn't been a stronghold of militant Marxism since time immemorial can be written off as irrevocably reactionary? Fucksake.

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Well alright, enlighten me:

That they only had a Labour MP in 97 tells a similar story.

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What story does it tell?

Because from your tone it sounds a lot like "these people can be disregarded as bumpkins".

baboon2004 said:

I said that because I'm tired of the apologising (not in reference to you, but in general) for 'fairly typical' areas in England, Wales etc that are just really backward and monocultural and racist/hostile to difference. I sneer only because I do see that as pitiable in the 21st century (or at any time, but). I would say similar things about other areas of the country too fwiw. And that doesn't mean that there aren't lots of decent people living there too, obvs

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Whilst England has its own flavour of the qualities you refer to, they are hardly unique to England. The romantic attitude towards capitalist ideology is stronger than in the rest of Europe, but there is *something* to the right-wing talking point that England is actually a tolerant nation, relatively speaking.

It is true that in most, if not all, other European countries a politician with policies like Corbyn would not be so thoroughly 'otherised' by the press (and 'Red Ed' shows it will happen to anyone left of Blair to some extent). But it's also silly to pretend that Corbyn has done himself many favours, or that a hypothetical person with the broadly the same domestic policies but better tactics (perhaps also better friends) couldn't be doing somewhat better. In many ways, Corbyn's Army did play well in 2015, but ultimately not enough to stop a Conservative government - and a long way from the working majority Corbyn would realistically need to implement his programme.

And FWIW, for all the stick I give Corbyn here, I'd sooner have him in charge than Johnson, a hundred times over. And I think the Lib Dems are making a mistake by rejecting his overture out of hand.

But I still don't trust Corbyn to actually campaign against Brexit. He still wants Brexit, just on his terms, but there's two and half months to go until we crash out with no deal by default, FFS. I'm struggling to see what can be done in that time - assuming he's in any position to do so - given that the rest of the EU is by now, and with good justification, quite utterly fucking sick of us. Let's just say I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised if he can somehow arrange for us to leave with some kind of deal (which will still leave us worse off than before, and which nobody actually wants, remember.)

I will explain this:

It means they only voted for Labour once it swung to the right. So it's hardly a leap of great faith to suggest what when Labour swings left again, their antipathy to Corbyn might not be due to him. Very basic point, you chose to derail.

I don't think they're bumpkins as in idiots. But I'm sick of making excuses for a supposedly evolved country where a lot of places are off-limits to non-white people (and people perceived in other ways as 'other') if they want to be sure of their safety, and of alleging that these places are in some way OK. They're not.

I'm out.

baboon2004 said:

I will explain this:

It means they only voted for Labour once it swung to the right. So it's hardly a leap of great faith to suggest what when Labour swings left again, their antipathy to Corbyn might not be due to him. Very basic point, you chose to derail.

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It was precisely and specifically to do with him. They told me this. Explicitly.

baboon2004 said:

I don't think they're bumpkins as in idiots. But I'm sick of making excuses for a supposedly evolved country where a lot of places are off-limits to non-white people (and people perceived in other ways as 'other') if they want to be sure of their safety, and of alleging that these places are in some way OK. They're not.

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Not bumpkins then, merely white supremacists. Gotcha.

"Off-limits to non-white people", you sound absolutely ridiculous. This is nothing but the mirror of image of the "no-go zones" Trump and his ilk love to bang on about.

So it's hardly a leap of great faith to suggest what when Labour swings left again, their antipathy to Corbyn might not be due to him.

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You've diluted your point to make it sound more reasonable tbf.

Note: Tea taking people at their word is pretty naive though. Sometimes people don't tell the truth, especially to themselves. Sovereignty my ass.

comelately said:

Whilst England has its own flavour of the qualities you refer to, they are hardly unique to England. The romantic attitude towards capitalist ideology is stronger than in the rest of Europe, but there is *something* to the right-wing talking point that England is actually a tolerant nation, relatively speaking.

It is true that in most, if not all, other European countries a politician with policies like Corbyn would not be so thoroughly 'otherised' by the press (and 'Red Ed' shows it will happen to anyone left of Blair to some extent). But it's also silly to pretend that Corbyn has done himself many favours, or that a hypothetical person with the broadly the same domestic policies but better tactics (perhaps also better friends) couldn't be doing somewhat better. In many ways, Corbyn's Army did play well in 2017, but ultimately not enough to stop a Conservative government - and a long way from the working majority Corbyn would realistically need to implement his programme.

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Sure, I agree with the first point. But my points are, (i) that just shows how low the standards are; and also that (ii) things are changing, rapidly. I just can't bear the chasm between everyday experience and Britain's view of itself. And because Britain is also more convinced it is more tolerant than other countries are, this creates a dangerous blind spot of complacency; we now have a far-right government operating in the husk of a 'mainstream' right wing party, in that it shows Farage's influence more than anyone else's. Which other Western European countries can we say this of?

Well my position is that in the 2017 election he did a lot better than could have been predicted. Good campaigner, bad day-to-day leader (to oversimplify). The idea that what is now branded a 'far left' platform by the BBC etc could have been taken to Downing St by any other politician is, in my opinion, fanciful in the extreme. People seem to forget so quickly how ferocious the press campaign against him was - how could anyone get a working majority in those circumstances, short of the most miraculous election campaign in history?

I get frustrated by an overconcentration on political personalities, which is seductive but so often ignores basic structural facts about how the UK is. This is a right-wing country in any meaningful terms. There is such a concerted outpouring of hatred and bile at anyone who dares to challenge this.

I think Corbyn is what I'd call "far left" on foreign policy. Domestic policy not so much. A lot of that stuff is great, Brexit nonwithstanding. The real crankery gets grinding with foreign policy and some of this is implicit, at the level of statements made and consistent positions taken rather than explicit as policy.

Your point about some parts of the UK being intolerant is an interesting one. I think it's a kind of inversion of the" London's full of metrosexual liberals" argument. Perhaps it's an example of London's hegemony over the country that we view overselves as tolerant in a way we aren't. FWIW I think a lot of London communities aren't particularly mixed especially middle class ones that would sign up to this as a value.

how could anyone get a working majority in those circumstances, short of the most miraculous election campaign in history?

I do wonder if the 2017 could've been maintained if the party have genuinely democratised and expressed this especially with regard to Brexit? Can't see how we'll ever know but it's something I wonder about.

DannyL said:

I think Corbyn is what I'd call "far left" on foreign policy. Domestic policy not so much. A lot of that stuff is great, Brexit nonwithstanding.

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Exactly. Labour's 2017 manifesto wasn't a document saying "We had it exactly right in 1973, let's do that again". It was actually pretty pragmatic.

Absolutely nobody, who is prepared to vote for Labour per se, is saying "Please don't tax billionaires too much or spend too much money on the welfare state". People saying that are Tory voters through and through, so whether Labour is led by Corbyn or Miliband or anyone else is irrelevant to them.

Mr. Tea said:

It was precisely and specifically to do with him. They told me this. Explicitly.

Not bumpkins then, merely white supremacists. Gotcha.

"Off-limits to non-white people", you sound absolutely ridiculous. This is nothing but the mirror of image of the "no-go zones" Trump and his ilk love to bang on about.

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"a lot of places are off-limits to non-white people (and people perceived in other ways as 'other') if they want to be sure of their safety" - again you partially quote me in order to not so subtly alter meaning. Dishonest all fucking day.

Well, my best friend was aggressively called a 'n**ger' in the street on a Saturday evening, the last (only) time we went to the west country together (for about 24 hours). There was violence implied, which luckily did not come to pass. No-one else did anything - needless to say the street was crowded. And needless to say, this was not a 'rogue' incident.

So ...how precisely is what I said "absolutely ridiculous", again? Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And saying that it is the mirror image of the Trump thing is extraordinary - one is a racist fantasy, and the other is some of the reality of racism.

Your combination of arrogance and ignorance is really quite something, tbh. Accept where you have no fucking clue of what you are talking about. Other people have different experiences from you.

Argh. Definitely out this time.

And because Britain is also more convinced it is more tolerant than other countries are, this creates a dangerous blind spot of complacency.

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True enough. But it's easy, speaking for myself as much as anyone, to use a disdain for the Englishness as cover for something probably closer to misanthropy.

Well my position is that in the 2017 election he did a lot better than could have been predicted. Good campaigner, bad day-to-day leader (to oversimplify). The idea that what is now branded a 'far left' platform by the BBC etc could have been taken to Downing St by any other politician is, in my opinion, fanciful in the extreme. People seem to forget so quickly how ferocious the press campaign against him was.

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I certainly remember, but a) Theresa May was not a strong opponent, b) the actual real world significance of his 'losing by less than expected' doesn't really add up to that much, except it allowed him to continue as leader - which I am not altogether sure was a plus in retrospect.

Pretty much any Brexit other than 'no-deal' has been so demonised at this point, that it doesn't really offer any stability to the EU - a future BXP/Tory government would likely unilaterally walk away from it. It also feels unlikely to me that any LD/Corbyn coalition would be that stable. The EU might go along with it given the economic situation right now, but it would be foolish to consider it an end state.

DannyL said:

Your point about some parts of the UK being intolerant is an interesting one. I think it's a kind of inversion of the" London's full of metrosexual liberals" argument. Perhaps it's an example of London's hegemony over the country that we view overselves as tolerant in a way we aren't. FWIW I think a lot of London communities aren't particularly mixed especially middle class ones that would sign up to this as a value.

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Agree with this, btw - all a continuum. Blind spots again, the underlying sense of 'it's not an issue'. That liberal thing of saying all the right things, but not being willing to engage with reality. And I know I've def been guilty of that on many occasions, before being dragged back to reality by someone pointing it out.

Well, my best friend was aggressively called a 'n**ger' in the street on a Saturday evening, the last (only) time we went to the west country together (for about 24 hours). There was violence implied, which luckily did not come to pass. No-one else did anything - needless to say the street was crowded. And needless to say, this was not a 'rogue' incident.

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Yes, the real problem is the Popperian notion of 'intolerance of intolerance' has not survived its contradictions. That's not just a right-wing problem (obviously the above is).