DannyL

Wild Horses
Sorry to hear about that incident btw. That's genuinely shocking. All this shit got a shot in the arm from Brexit. I remember a potential next door neighbour telling me it'd be "nice to hear English voices again", the week of the vote
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Thanks Danny. It was very grim. I imagine lots of people have experienced similarly though; there's a veneer of civility that very quickly drops, especially when the fiction of 'whiteness' is emboldened as an organised reality in the political discourse, media etc.

Definitely. This was actually earlier in the decade, when the Tories getting in seemed to presage a new boldness in racism, and of course as you say, that was magnified from 2016 on. From "But where are you actually from?" upwards.

I thought an accurate summing up of the mirage of liberalism was when someone in the public eye (not sure who though?) said of that horrific homophobic attack against the two women on the London bus, that Britain is such a gaslighting society - on the one hand emphasising (over and over) how accepting it is of LGBTI people, making a (rightly) big deal of Pride etc, and on the other the reality is that if a same-sex couple holds hands in the street they risk attack...

Makes me think that a good social experiment would be to pair up people, lock them in a room and force Person A (maybe gag them?) to listen without speaking for ten minutes to Person B's lived experience of reality, where Person B experiences prejudice on a different axis. I thin kin general people just don't believe the extent of the shit that happens to other people. Certainly when my partner and female friends have dropped the niceties and explained to me without censoring themselves exactly what it is to be a woman in our society, then (and it really feels like #metoo was a bit of watershed moment, however cliched that might be)...I've learned a lot and heard things that initially made my mind spin.
(Inspired by the social experiment of Liverpool FC signing a genius star player who happens to be a practising Muslim, and seeing Islamophobia [allegedly - I hope it's true] plummet among the club's supporters and even in the city in general.)
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Yes, the real problem is the Popperian notion of 'intolerance of intolerance' has not survived its contradictions. That's not just a right-wing problem (obviously the above is).

And again and again (if I'm understanding you rightly here), the report from the victim in incidents of discrimination is that no bystander did anything. And genuine fear is a very real thing of course, as well as apathy/complicity - I've definitely been there.

And then there are those cases where someone does speak up, and all power to them.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Baboon, I'm sorry your friend had a horrible experience with an awful racist cunt, but at the risk of stating the obvious, you're generalising from one person to a whole city of 130,000 people, or perhaps an entire quarter of England, and unfortunately prejudice like that an be found anywhere, including a supposedly much more enlightened and multicultural city such as London (which you presumably haven't totally written off on the basis of Stephen Lawrence's murder?) There are in fact non-white people who live here. I have colleagues from Bangladesh and China who don't even live in the city but in the smaller surrounding towns.

Now I don't doubt that many or even all of these people have experienced racism but the place is clearly not "off-limits" to them if they live here! So maybe don't damn entire swathes of the country based on a run-in with some arsehole?
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Thank you for the first statement.

For the rest - talk to people more about their experiences, and see if your opinion changes (continuing my theme above).

"So maybe don't damn entire swathes of the country based on a run-in with some arsehole"
Maybe don't reduce the inevitable products of systemic racism to "a run-in with some arsehole". The individualisation of racism, and the essentialist attitude that lies behind it, is a massive problem in tackling discrimination - it keeps the whole edifice in place [equivalent in #metoo conversations is #notallmen]. You and I - and every other 'white' person - also need to deconstruct the racism inside us for anything to change, which is the principal theme of this whole conversation**. Using terms such as 'unfortunately' is also problematic - racism isn't 'unfortunate', it's the logical product of a very specific ideology/system of power (also interacting with other ideologies of power)

The 'racist things happen in London too' is missing the point dramatically, for similar reasons of not seeing/refusing to see the broader picture. While there are of course non-white people who live in Devon (as I say, I am broadly familiar with the place), there is a definite reason why not many non-white people choose to move there. This is pretty fucking obvious stuff, tbh.

Obviously the concept of microaggressions (choose another word if you don't like that one - what I mean is the consistent onslaught of low-level discrimination) is incredibly useful here. And one that is routinely disavowed by those who refuse to see reality.

** I refer to it principally because it happened yesterday, but the attack on Owen Jones is an example of this dynamic in a slightly different context. It's the climate of intolerance and hatred that lays the groundwork for things like this to happen, not rogue individuals, and it is exactly this that the far right is at pains to deny, as you'll see on Twitter this morning.

Baboon, I'm sorry your friend had a horrible experience with an awful racist cunt, but at the risk of stating the obvious, you're generalising from one person to a whole city of 130,000 people, or perhaps an entire quarter of England, and unfortunately prejudice like that an be found anywhere, including a supposedly much more enlightened and multicultural city such as London (which you presumably haven't totally written off on the basis of Stephen Lawrence's murder?) There are in fact non-white people who live here. I have colleagues from Bangladesh and China who don't even live in the city but in the smaller surrounding towns.

Now I don't doubt that many or even all of these people have experienced racism but the place is clearly not "off-limits" to them if they live here! So maybe don't damn entire swathes of the country based on a run-in with some arsehole?

In the Jeremy Deller rave programme that's on iplayer (excellent for so many reasons), there is a moment where a young woman wearing a hijab explains exactly what it feels like to travel outside London in the UK. She's talking about Oxford, in that case - a city that is 78% white (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_and_their_ethnic_composition) and not 90-odd % white as so many in the UK [Exeter is 93% on that list]
PS Oxford is actually less white than a few outer London boroughs on that list
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well yeah, immigrants generally come to big cities because that's where the vast majority of the jobs are. It's not like there's something in the water that makes white people in Devon inherently more racist than white people in London or anywhere else - and as you point out, this kind of very visible and aggressive prejudice can be found in places even with much larger ethnic minority populations. There are northern towns with huge south Asian populations that are virtually segregated.

The main thing I took issue with was your hyperbolic "off-limits to non-whites" comment, when in fact there are non-white people who live here, enough that I'll see black, south Asian, east Asian and Middle-Eastern people in any ten-minute walk along the high street. Obviously it's not like London or Birmingham but of course it isn't - it's a small, non-industrial city surrounded by countryside for tens of miles in any direction.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
And for heaven's sake, by "unfortunate" I meant "bad". Clearly I'm not trying to make racism sound like a natural phenomenon that just happens and can't be helped. Is this forensic examination of my every word really necessary or useful?
 

luka

Well-known member
I like south Devon. It's difficult for all us whiteys to assess how racist it is compared to other parts of the country but I doubt it's above average. They're insular people but not mean spirited like northerners are.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
The main thing I took issue with was your hyperbolic "off-limits to non-whites" comment.

""a lot of places are off-limits to non-white people (and people perceived in other ways as 'other') if they want to be sure of their safety". I might as well paste this as my signature if I'm going to have to remind you each time.

Ffs, you're misquoting me again, even after I've pointed this pattern out multiple times. It wasn't hyperbolic if you actually read what I said, was it? It was perfectly correct. Although at this point I am wondering what's at stake for you here - why can't you just go "well yes actually, I do live in a region where a lot of non-white people might not feel it's safe to live, or even visit" rather than misquoting me to (try to) win an argument. It leaves a bad taste considering the subject matter of racist prejudice leading up to potential violence. Is it civic pride?
It's not personal - lots of areas in Britain are like that, let alone other areas/countries in Europe. It's just a fact.

I'm not forensically analysing everything you say - it's that the use of that word is exactly indicative of your seeming total blindness to the way that systemic discrimination works. And notably you totally ignored all of that.

I'm going to bill you for emotional labour at some point during this conversation.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
I like south Devon. It's difficult for all us whiteys to assess how racist it is compared to other parts of the country but I doubt it's above average. They're insular people but not mean spirited like northerners are.

Could well be true (apart from the northerner thing - I find southerners colder and meaner overall, saying that as one). Doesn't mean it's not pretty awful in that particular respect.
 

luka

Well-known member
As tea pointed out northern cities are much like Belfast. Very strict segregation and mutual hatred and suspicion. No interaction ever under any circumstances.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Oh I certainly have no interest in defending them. I like the Midlands (where I live now) apart from the 5% of the time when people are utterly fucking terrifying. It feels pretty mixed in many areas as it goes...though far from all. Hipsterism in particular is ultra-white as most places.

And I like South Devon too as it goes. But I'm white; white people with a tendency towards racism are generally nice to me, until we get in a long conversation (and even then). In fact, one time I did go to Exeter I got involved with an argument with some awful twat, but can't remember much about it due to the 3-for-1 promotion at the bar we'd been to. I might have been in the wrong, but I doubt it.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Woops has told me a few things about Burnley in the past - it's the only reason I know anything about the place tbh. Don't get the impression it's that great...
 

comelately

Wild Horses
Very strict segregation and mutual hatred and suspicion. No interaction ever under any circumstances.

I actually have direct experience of Burnley, I've been out on a Saturday night a few times - not recently or anything lol, but still. Antipathy towards Muslims was definitely noticeable, but if people want a taxi or a kebab they're probably interacting.

My Father lived in Oldham for a few years (until he died last year in fact), and I've spent plenty of time there. I mean.....yeah, you don't see Muslims down the Wetherspoons but then you don't anywhere else either. His neighbours on one side were/are Pakistani and I'm pretty sure they interacted because I've eaten their curry (spicy!), and they were outside to pay their respects when the Hearse arrived.

My understanding is that if you rock up to Glodwick you may well get asked what you're doing there, but in a sense it's not an unreasonable question given that there's no fucking reason to go there tbh. Hypothetically if it was because there was food joint that was supposed to be the nuts and you wanted to check it out, I doubt it would be a major issue. I've never had a problem interacting with anyone down the market or anywhere else. But then a Londoner is a mild curiousity.

Manchester gentrification is pushing Black families in larger numbers out into the wider Greater Manchester area, including Oldham; how that's going I'm not altogether sure tbh.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
""a lot of places are off-limits to non-white people (and people perceived in other ways as 'other') if they want to be sure of their safety". I might as well paste this as my signature if I'm going to have to remind you each time.

Ffs, you're misquoting me again, even after I've pointed this pattern out multiple times. It wasn't hyperbolic if you actually read what I said, was it? It was perfectly correct. Although at this point I am wondering what's at stake for you here - why can't you just go "well yes actually, I do live in a region where a lot of non-white people might not feel it's safe to live, or even visit" rather than misquoting me to (try to) win an argument. It leaves a bad taste considering the subject matter of racist prejudice leading up to potential violence. Is it civic pride?
It's not personal - lots of areas in Britain are like that, let alone other areas/countries in Europe. It's just a fact.

I'm not forensically analysing everything you say - it's that the use of that word is exactly indicative of your seeming total blindness to the way that systemic discrimination works. And notably you totally ignored all of that.

I'm going to bill you for emotional labour at some point during this conversation.

But I think even your full original sentence is incorrect. Or at least a gross exaggeration. Yes, I'm white, but that doesn't make me blind and deaf. Exeter does not have ethnic ghettos, widespread racialized street gang violence or regular EDL rallies - all of which are found in some cities with much bigger ethnic minority populations, where black and brown people still live despite an obviously higher likelihood of hassle or violence.

It's not 'civic pride' - I don't come from this part of the country and have no particular spiritual bond with the place. It's just annoying in that I've lived here for three years and have some idea what it's actually like, and you're telling me I'm wrong because you've visited occasionally and had run-ins with a couple of dickheads.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Anyway. I think this all kicked off because of baboon's insistence on the existence of weird right-wing Labour voters who insist on voting Labour for some reason despite apparently having values indistinguishable from the Tory party. Ed Miliband tried to out-manoeuvre the Tories on immigration control and austerity in 2015 and it failed miserably, because why would voters who want those things go for Labour's 'Tory-lite' version when they could just have the full-fat real thing from the Tories instead?

I also think your attempt to tie this in with the city going Labour in 1997, and with xenophobia/insularity/racism, is pretty misguided when you consider that Labour under Blair was nothing if not massively in favour of immigration and multiculturalism. As I said, it was notably one of the few holdouts of the Remain campaign in this part of the country in the 2016 referendum. (Yes, Devon as a whole voted Leave, but then so did England and Wales, as a whole.)
 

droid

Well-known member
As tea pointed out northern cities are much like Belfast. Very strict segregation and mutual hatred and suspicion. No interaction ever under any circumstances.

I... doubt this is true, and is in some ways quite a misreading of Belfast.
 
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