Leo

Well-known member
from Andrew Sullivan http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09/andrew-sullivan-boris-johnson-bad-start-brexit.html

But what looks like a dreadful start for Johnson may not end that way. It could also lead to triumph. Here’s why: It seems inevitable now that a general election will happen this October or, at the very latest, November. If Brexit has not happened — and it’s pretty clear at this point that it will not have — then the election is effectively going to be a second referendum. This time, the choice will be starker than in 2016: a no-deal Brexit or staying in the E.U. And this week, by firing the dissenters, Johnson has succeeded in making the Tories the uncomplicated “Leave Now” party. By clearing up any confusion, Johnson will thereby stymie the threat to Tory seats by the Brexit Party, which stormed to victory in the recent European elections. He may even secure an election “nonaggression” pact with the Brexit party on a clearly “no deal” agenda. What Boris has effectively done is rerun the referendum as an election campaign.

His argument is a simple and powerful one: In the referendum, a majority voted to leave the E.U., and this decision should be honored or democracy itself is undermined. The E.U. will not let Britain eat its cake and have it too, and has insisted that the U.K. remain largely under E.U. rules even as it leaves the E.U., offering a compromise that was rejected by the U.K. Parliament decisively three times. So a “no deal” exit is the only realistic version of Brexit left. It’s the people’s will against the elites’. The idea that voters did not know what they were doing in 2016 is delusional. They were told endlessly that leaving would mean catastrophe in economic terms, and they still voted to leave. The real question is: Why have we not left on time? What’s left to argue about? Get on with it.
...

Johnson has a clear case: that he stands for respecting a democratic vote to leave the E.U., that his opponents are elitists trying to defeat the will of the people in favor of a foreign entity, the E.U., and that Jeremy Corbyn cannot be allowed into Number 10. It’s right-wing populism headed by someone with charisma and a record of winning elections. Labour? Its strongest issues are domestic: better health care, tax increases on the rich, more affordable housing — and in an election dominated by Brexit, those issues will be less salient. Its position on Brexit, moreover, has been hopelessly confused, never quite achieving a clear pro-E.U. stance.

As for Corbyn, he is the Tories’ secret weapon. An unreconstructed Marxist and anti-Semite, his approval ratings are in the 20s — almost halved from 2017. A new snap poll this week revealed that only 18 percent of Brits think Corbyn would be the best prime minister compared with 40 percent for Johnson. In a new poll, 43 percent of Brits said the worst outcome of a general election would be Corbyn as prime minister, while only 35 percent cited a no-deal exit. Elections are a choice. If it’s Corbyn versus No Deal, No Deal could very well win.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
This is my problem.... how can an election be a straight referendum? How should someone vote who is a life-long Labour voter but also a Leaver?
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
I've been seeing a lot of polls these last few days, they contradict and so on but overall I'm getting the impression that a Tory win isn't as certain as I thought. Is it just me or what?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
The Tories have been very good at sticking to this "Surrender Bill" bollocks. Considering that a) we know that they are not really negotiating properly and b) even if they were, threatening to just fuck everything up wouldn't be a good tactic - we know that the name is completely dishonest and doesn't make any sense but by sticking to it they've got their message out and I see it being used as the name everywhere. Now I don't know if this is by people who get it and are happy to repeat the lie for their own ends or just by the manipulated but either way it's gained far more currency than it deserved.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I've been seeing a lot of polls these last few days, they contradict and so on but overall I'm getting the impression that a Tory win isn't as certain as I thought. Is it just me or what?

The Tories under Johnson definitely command the support of less than half of voters, but there is no single bloc (either extant or feasible) that commands anything like that level of support. Corbyn is far less popular than he was in the run-up to the 2017 GE, when he wiped the smile off May's face by destroying her majority but still couldn't actually shift the Tories out of government. So the problem is that the progressive anti-Brexit vote is split between people who will still vote Labour despite Corbyn's pro-Brexit stance (never mind the party's other problems), people who will vote Lib Dem despite the fact that they're pretty much the unofficial Remain wing of the Tory party these days, and people voting Green (in England) and nationalist (elsewhere).

Whereas the only party that is really any sort of rival to the Tories for pro-No-Deal votes in BXP, in the event that it decides to field actual candidates for Westminster.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Bercow stepping down now.... oh dear

Hmm, that's probably not good. Isn't it usual that the Speaker has to come from the opposition party, though? I mean, is it a law or is it just a tradition that the government is free to ignore if it wants to?

(I know Bercow was a Tory before becoming speaker but he's been in the job since 2009, in the dying days of the last Labour govt.)
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Yeah but apparently the Tory's own polling is showing that they are gonna have even fewer seats than after May's election. Will they be able to form a majority with the Brexit party? How many seats will they get? No-one knows what is gonna happen at all.
Also, I've just seen that France are gonna insist on a two year extension... can they do that?
And parliament shuts for five weeks tomorrow, it's just awful! How am I gonna entertain myself? Er, and it's a terrible affront to democracy obviously.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I would suggest rewatching some GoT, but I fear even Littlefinger's chicanery is going to look a bit tame compared to what's been going on in this country just recently.

Where is the Remain side's Varys/Tyrion? That's what I want to see.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Normally the convention is that the speaker comes from the opposition party I think - though I've also read that it's convention that they alternate, going Tory/Lab/Tory etc both point to a Labour speaker. But that is just convention, ultimately it's decided by secret ballot. Though by stepping down now Bercow has guaranteed that the next speaker will be voted for by this minority parliament rather than the next one, which means it will be harder for the government to install a pro-brexit puppet... though on the other hand, next parliament they could probably elect a new-new-speaker as it's only convention that would prevent that too...
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
More amazing stuff, they are debating now on whether the government should be forced to release documents relating to the poro.... thingy, but if the below is true the result doesn't matter

Labour MP Chris Leslie tells Grieve that No.10 is currently briefing reporters that "under no circumstances will No10 staff comply with Grieve's demands regardless of any votes in parliament". Extraordinary.
What the fuck is going on?
 

comelately

Wild Horses
A lot of SIM cards will be going in the bin right about now. Cummings is probably going round Westminster ripping out payphones. Nick Clegg's probably getting a few phone calls


In other news: Backstop's Back, Alright! We even have Andrew Bridgen saying it might be acceptable if NI get a vote on it.

Re: the general election maths. The Torys have a better idea what seats they're likely to lose than what seats they'd be likely to win. The way things are going (see above), it isn't looking like Boris wants that Brexit Party pact. The Brexit Party themselves have announced one of their few policies - abolish inheritance tax. As Jess Phillips pointed out, that's a policy aimed at Surrey not Northern Labour constituencies. However disgruntled Labour voters in those constituencies who aren't really sure they ever want to vote Tory have a protest option in the Brexit Party.

I'm really not sure Farage wants this Brexit.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
On top of everything else, I find it completely staggering that Johnson can describe the result of the referendum as "Emphatic" - just amazes me even now.
 

Leo

Well-known member
don't be amazed, rich. like trump, he's just a shameless liar who will say anything at any time if he thinks it's in his best interest. it's not that these guys are stupid or "don't get it", they are just narcissistic pathological liars.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
So weird that cos of convention you cannot call someone a liar in the house of commons - even if they lie right to your fact.
Anyway, Johnson just failed in his second attempt to have an election so that's good at least. Does that mean he has lost his first six votes? Ha - twat.
 
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