thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Has anyone else noticed an increased occurrence of phrases like "extreme Remainers", "Remainiacs" and so on? It just struck me that the Overton window on Brexit has now moved so far that simply maintaining the UK's existing legal and economic relationship with the EU can now be painted as a sort of radical position.

Maybe it's just a case of fallacious balance, or the idea that if a NDB is extreme, then its opposite - no Brexit - must be extreme, too. Which sounds a bit like saying that if shooting yourself in both feet is an extreme measure, then not shooting yourself in either foot is also extreme, so shooting yourself in only one foot is a good, sensible compromise.


I use remainiacs ironically because the EU has realised that it is their petty squabbling that is going to give them a chance to get shot of us. fair play, it's cuntish, but we can't expect much else from our boss overlords. I.E: the leavers aren't actually going to bring about no deal and soft remainers are too flaccid to get worked up about Corbyn. And I think they are right, in this situation it's best to be placid. and flaccid. corbyn is not the most evil man who has walked the face of 10 downing st.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
but when i said this a year a half ago that the remain campaign is likely to trigger no deal you laughed at me so who knows really Sid.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
but when i said this a year a half ago that the remain campaign is likely to trigger no deal you laughed at me so who knows really Sid.
It makes sense to me... but I was glad when say May's deal was rejected cos it kept alive the possibility of both No Deal and also Remain. And I'd rather have that sliver of hope than it just be done and dusted with the WA... but yeah, the penalty for that was an increased likelihood of No Deal.
I've seen people saying Remain Extremists more and more too - it struck me as a childish rhetorical attack on Remainers that is annoyingly gaining more currency and traction than it deserves. No more behind it than that I expect.
 

version

Well-known member
I saw someone refer to the Lib Dems as extremists the other day. Everyone seems to be so intimidated by the right and accusations of bias that they're trying to force the "both sides" thing in an effort to pander to them.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I saw someone refer to the Lib Dems as extremists the other day. Everyone seems to be so intimidated by the right and accusations of bias that they're trying to force the "both sides" thing in an effort to pander to them.
One of the most frustrating things in this for me has been the lack of cooperation between the goodies. The Tories are evil, they are committed to an insane course and everyone knows it - but the others have proved unable to find the diplomacy to make common cause against them, with awful results for the rest of us. Pathetic really.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ects-call-tom-watson-labour-fully-back-remain

“Ever since 2016, I’ve sought to bring people together. People voted remain because they wanted to remain in the EU and felt it was their best option. Many voted leave because they were angry at the way their communities had been left behind, denied investment, denied good quality jobs, denied any real hope for the future,” [Corbyn] said.

“I want to lead a Labour government that will bring people together, and a relationship with Europe, either in the EU or an effective trading relationship with Europe, in which we have a dynamic relationship on regulations and rights so we don’t become a Donald Trump island, on the edge of Europe, undermining the social advances that have been made.”

I can only assume the Guardian cut out the bit in the middle of these two sentences, where Corbyn presumably said "Of course it's a lie that the EU is responsible for all this socio-economic malaise and it's actually the fault of successive British governments, mainly Tory ones." I mean there's no way an honest, progressive politician trying his best to prevent the takeover of the country by ultra-reactionary disaster capitalists could have failed to point that out. Right?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Maybe I should demand that we leave the EU because I'm angry that Valve never got round to releasing Half-Life 3.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

You've completely missed my point, which is not how people are behaving, but the position itself.

And to be honest I'm struggling to see what the point of that article is, except to have a good sneer. It has an undercurrent of "We won, get over it". Yeah people are upset about the situation, of course they are.

Frankly it reads like a Telegraph article that got published in the Guardian by mistake.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
For what it’s worth I don’t agree with the article. Was posting it to illustrate your point about the recontextualisation of remain as being radical in broader public discourse.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
For what it’s worth I don’t agree with the article. Was posting it to illustrate your point about the recontextualisation of remain as being radical in broader public discourse.

Fair enough - I thought you were going down the "look at these nutters with their faces pained blue, haha" route.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
And to be honest I'm struggling to see what the point of that article is, except to have a good sneer. It has an undercurrent of "We won, get over it". Yeah people are upset about the situation, of course they are.

to be fair, a bit of sneering is healthy because the remain camp want to lionise a democratic decision and yet at the same time not to commit to a programmatic politics. well, either you respect democracy, or you put forward a programme or are a programatist. I'm of course the latter. despite not being a leaver I was opposed to the ref from the start, calling it a reactionary racist project, as is the EU (border externalisation not mean anything?) and I advocated that remainers delegitimise and not vote in it. you didn't though, you let the democratic mechanism run its course and you got a disenfranchised public at yer throat. that's not how this works.

of course the leavers also don't have a programatic politics, but the leave vote was a vote of chaos, where as the remain was a vote of law and order (and possibly, ever so slightly possibly, reform.)
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Yeah sorry about that, my bad.

but don't you see? we all me and you actually have the power to stop brexit, we just choose to wait for a messiah and a leader (in the form of a politician) to concentrate our atomised consciousness. it's the psychoanalytic authoritarian personality in full bloom.

There are many embedded assumptions in the question. “We should appeal to politicians to sort problems out.” (We shouldn’t, and it’s childish to assume so. Politics is not something other people do.)“We live in a democracy — the electoral/parliamentary system is just and fair.” (It’s not. It’s a pale shadow of real collaboration. You know this.) “Oh, if only we could convince people with our fine reasoning, it’d all be sorted.” (Yep. Convince the racists with logic. Sway those greedy CEOs and media barons with a bit of dogma. Shout down the miscreants and delinquents until they admit their defeat, every last one. Good luck.)
The petition validates all these assumptions, ratifies the decision-making system we have, then tells you to sit back down and shut up.
It lowers your expectations and narrows your view.
To which the reply seems to be:“It’s worth a shot anyway”. Now this is pretty odd reasoning. If I know that going into my garden and having a dance won’t make it rain, is it worth doing anyway? “But… I danced! What else can I do?”
Petitioner, is the dance for you or them? Is dancing together important, even if it’s hopeless? Is that what this is about — fellowship in tragedy? Gallows-humouring-each-other? Is that really all you have left to do?
Oh forthright signee, you can choose to not dance, for yourself or for them. It does nothing. In fact, it’s much, much worse than doing nothing. The exercise validates the whole shit-show and the vain liberal assumptions it carries. It convinces you that you’ve “done something” when all you’ve really achieved is a salving of your conscience. It’s wet, liberal hand wringing of the very worst kind. It heavily implies that you’ve “done all I can” when — steady yourself — that’s manifestly untrue.
So let’s answer the question. If you genuinely want to make your opposition felt, what could you do?
Off the top of my head, you can pretty much bring society to a halt in the next couple of hours if you want. Stop business and civil society in its tracks. Go to every shop, office, and workplace and flood their toilets if you wish. ‘Accidentally’ lean on the fire alarms. Clumsily spill coffee on their electronics. Get haphazrdly stuck in lifts. Go to a drive-through and contrive to lose your car keys in the queue for twenty minutes. Get a bunch of A4 envelopes and cheap stamps, and mail a pile of loose stones to Wetherspoons to wipe the shit-eating grin off their owner’s awful, awful face. With a bit of superglue and some chains, you can stop people getting in or out of pretty much any building. Don’t go to work. Any of you. Riot. All of you.
Because you’ll do all you can, right?
Wrong. I don’t think you’ll do that. Any of it. Because, implicit in your question, is that politics is something other people do. You’ve no leader, or viral movement, or tipping point that allows all that stuff to gather inertia. If everyone else was at a barricade right now, you’d quite possibly toddle off and join them. But there are no blockades, no strikes, no riots. There aren’t even any flooded bogs.
So maybe you won’t. But know this: politics is what you do, today and tomorrow. It’s not up to someone else. In the words of a song, “act as if you’re free already”.

 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
now I wouldn't call it an F scale, but replace F with A and this describes most of the electorate on both sides doesn't it? be honest, Sid.

"The personality type Adorno et al. identified can be defined by nine traits that were believed to cluster together as the result of childhood experiences. These traits include conventionalism, authoritarian submission, authoritarian aggression, anti-intellectualism, anti-intraception, superstition and stereotypy, power and "toughness", destructiveness and cynicism, projectivity, and exaggerated concerns over sex."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Authoritarian_Personality

That describes most British people, I have to say. Even, wait for it, hold yourself, even me though I try to break free from it. because I don't exist in a vacuum.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
it's like danny l endeavouring to be anti-authoritarian in his therapeutic work but then crying out for sensible politics. the cognitive dissonance is mad. sensible politics is precisely submission to authority.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Different planes, really. I don't have a coherent ideological space that reconciles the two.

A lot of my politics is basically just reacting against whatever appalling position the extremists of either tribe have taken.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
There's also the idea that for a "therapeutic" politics to really work, people would have to be un-fucked up i.e. engaged in therapy in a sustained way. I can't see how that could ever happen tbh. Deep personal work vs mass scale, collective organising. Reich's route out of it was what you see in his books about child-rearing, trying to build in structures so we have less neurotics per capita.

Probably the most sustained political vision that relates to his work can be found somewhere like Summerhill, and that's still very small scale, maybe 80 people?

Did I tell you about when I went there? I saw the school negotiate a several complex dilemmas personal and collective via a group meeting. It had the strangest effect on me. I almost couldn't believe it was real. I think it impacted on my own personal armouring in strange way.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
but don't you see? we all me and you actually have the power to stop brexit, we just choose to wait for a messiah and a leader (in the form of a politician) to concentrate our atomised consciousness. it's the psychoanalytic authoritarian personality in full bloom.




Yeah yeah yeah, and the Nazis could have been stopped in the same way. I get it. If everyone did this, or a decent fraction of everyone did it, it would work and there would be change. Clearly that isn't going to happen, because unless everyone did it at once, the few who actually did bother would be risking life and liberty for no purpose.

He's right that everyone has different ways of pretending to themselves that they're doing something to help, whether it's sharing online petitions or writing haughty rants on Medium.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Different planes, really. I don't have a coherent ideological space that reconciles the two.

A lot of my politics is basically just reacting against whatever appalling position the extremists of either tribe have taken.


so it's not really politics then. fair enough, I can't knock that. better a cynical centrist than a radical one.
 
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