UK EU Referendum Aftermath
- Thread starter Woebot
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IdleRich
IdleRich
Depends. If you are a Whip then you are supposed to be loyal to the government and also you are supposed to make other MPs be loyal too. If the government is pursuing a policy that you cannot support then you cannot in good conscience do this job so you must resign from it. Remember when they are resigning they are just leaving their role in the government, they are not stopping being an MP. They are not necessarily even leaving the Tory party so arguably they can still find a way to solve the problem, they will just no longer be a whip. Same goes for cabinet ministers really, if they vote against the government then they will get kicked out of the cabinet anyway so they may as well as resign. Probably before that they do try and find solutions but if there is an issue on which they feel very strongly then when the vote comes they can either vote for it against their conscience or vote against it (or abstain) against their job. At that point there is no third way.
Leo
Well-known member
ah, thanks, that explains it.
in general terms, though, it does seem politicians today are less inclined to give a little in order to get a little. that's (one of) the big joke(s) about Donald "art of the deal" trump: in the real estate developer world, there are always a million potential deals on the table and if he didn't get everything he wanted out of one deal, he'd just walk out, with the knowledge that one of two things would happen: his opponent would give in for fear of losing out, or trump would just forget about that opportunity and move on to the next one.
his rude awakening is that politics and governing don't work that way. as we are painfully aware.
IdleRich
IdleRich
My feeling is that we have a particularly bad set of MPs in the UK at the moment; now I don't know why that is, maybe they are more cynical, perhaps fewer have real world experience, maybe soundbite culture makes their job harder - they are so scared of saying something stupid that can wreck their career if taken slightly out of context that they don't say anything at all - but I do genuinely think that it's not just rose-tinted spectacles that makes me think that most of this lot are worse than even the Tory party of my youth. As John Crace put it today "In a parallel universe, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May might have been an ideal match on a blind date. Both have a flair for the mediocre and instinctively misjudge the mood of the house." And this is highlighted by the fact they have a really difficult situation to deal with... cometh the hour doesn't cometh the (wo)man.
May in particular has been particularly inflexible (guilty as you charge). It's her red lines that have made the problem to start with and her repeated parroting of (at best) half-truths has undermined everything she said. At the last minute she's looking for compromise but it's too late.
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IdleRich
IdleRich
Yeah it's hilarious that Trump claims to be a specialist in the art of the deal (even though he didn't even write the fucking book) but it turns out that his negotiation tactics are one that only work when you are in a way stronger position than the person you're treating with. So many parallels between Trump and Brexit but if you're pointing out that his inability to get any movement with the shutdown can be compared to the UK's "easiest negotiation ever" then I'm with you.
IdleRich
IdleRich
I am very glad that May's deal was voted down today as I prefer the glimmer of hope of No-Brexit that still exists to the alternative, even if there is now also a higher chance of a No Deal Brexit. Additonally the spectacular margin of the defeat underlines how utterly May's leadership has gone. Total uncharted territory from here but at least there is a chance that the UK will not leave. Maybe.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
I think more likely that the Labour leadership still doesn't have any clear plan on Brexit whatsoever.
From EU's perspective, surely with the other existential threats it faces across the continent, then it will do everything possible to retain the UK by extending Article 50 etc? Not because it can't cope economically of course (as some delusional Brexiters would have it), but for political reasons.
From EU's perspective, surely with the other existential threats it faces across the continent, then it will do everything possible to retain the UK by extending Article 50 etc? Not because it can't cope economically of course (as some delusional Brexiters would have it), but for political reasons.
you got a better idea then?
I don't think the labour policies for rebuilding would be as revolutionary and radical as people seem to think
do you mean rebuild in the sense that they would follow the same post-war path and eventually make the same mistakes? cuz it seems pretty dangerous/delusional to me to think neoliberalism in any form can wheeze on much longer
some of the most left in labour might have always thought no deal > chaos > rebuild state, but I think after May most likely wins the vote of no confidence the tories will end up implementing the soft Brexit that was the labour policy
IdleRich
IdleRich
At the moment the impasse must be broken. It seems that the only possibilities remaining (unless the EU suddenly say that they will renegotiate) are No Deal and No Brexit. Both are unpalatable to enough people in parliament to prevent them making a decision so it probably should be thrown back to the country. If they said that the choices are between Remain and NoDeal and it was made clear that that is a different question to that asked before then maybe the voters will understand that and grasp that it's not an affront.... no fuck it, they won't, the whole thing is fucked, they'll whine like fuck and it will all kick off.
droid
Well-known member
Of the 42 seats that Lab need to take power the average leave vote was about 65%.
Last poll I saw showed that the party that calls for a second ref will lose the next election.
Whatever about Corbyn's grand plan, fact is there is little to gain by supping from the Tories poisoned chalice.
Last poll I saw showed that the party that calls for a second ref will lose the next election.
Whatever about Corbyn's grand plan, fact is there is little to gain by supping from the Tories poisoned chalice.
IdleRich
IdleRich
At the moment I don't really care about who runs the country, I care about Brexit. That either/both sides are using the crisis (cos that's what it is) as a lever to manipulate their way to power is another terrible aspect of the whole thing. Both sides should call a truce and sort this out and then have an election but that will never happen...
But forgetting about party politics, right now there is an impasse that needs sorting out. If parliament can't do it then they need to find another way.
But forgetting about party politics, right now there is an impasse that needs sorting out. If parliament can't do it then they need to find another way.
We're going to see things our grandchildren will not believe.
Skulls piled high
Strange fruit on City lamp posts.
Hordes of ragged horsemen.
Crown Jewels filched by enemy drone swarm.
The crooked cross atop every flagpole, for a spell.
And all in 4K UltraHD!
Skulls piled high
Strange fruit on City lamp posts.
Hordes of ragged horsemen.
Crown Jewels filched by enemy drone swarm.
The crooked cross atop every flagpole, for a spell.
And all in 4K UltraHD!
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
According to people who pay more attention to this stuff than I do, the EU have been fairly clear that they'd be willing to extend A50 and carry on negotiations if there was an indication that the British government had made a fairly fundamental shift in their position on what was acceptable. What they aren't willing to do is waste time saying "no" again to every fuckwit who reckons that Theresa May could have kept to all her red lines but also got everything that anyone had ever wanted if only she'd "believed in Brexit" and "gone in with the right attitude".
IdleRich
IdleRich
Yeah, I think that's right. I guess that a general election would arguably be another way to break the deadlock but because Labour are not really laying out what they would do about Brexit if they were in power (beyond some nebulous claims about renegotiating which they won't be able to do) it doesn't feel that way. If they laid out a crystal clear position which demonstrated what they stand for on this then maybe it will as though there is a point to a GE but at the moment it doesn't to me.