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Thread: It's great when you're straight

  1. #136
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    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mr. Tea For This Useful Post:


  3. #137
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    lool that's your finest moment. you'll never top that. might as well retire for real now.

  4. #138
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    nice knowing you guys!

    (edit: jk, I'm obviously going to be here until the heat-death of the universe)
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 31-01-2018 at 12:22 PM.
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  5. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny B View Post
    Lol when did I ever say this?
    Well baboon articulated it most explicitly in this thread, though you've been heading in a similar direction:

    ...the undoubted male suicide crisis has nothing to do with ignoring this crisis to focus instead on patriarchal attitudes. It's almost the opposite - the continued fixation from men on maintaining fixed gender roles (which obviously disadvantages women massively; the less appreciated aspect being that men also suffer hugely from a system they in essence created)...
    Sounds like there's been a mutual misunderstanding because c_c only said he doesn't think patriarchal attitudes have that big an effect in the male suicide phenomenon or in the present mismanagement of the NHS, and not - as you said - that it's "a thing of that past" in general.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  6. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Well baboon articulated it most explicitly in this thread, though you've been heading in a similar direction:

    .
    Nobody said or articulated anything of the sort

  7. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post


    Sounds like there's been a mutual misunderstanding because c_c only said he doesn't think patriarchal attitudes have that big an effect in the male suicide phenomenon or in the present mismanagement of the NHS, and not - as you said - that it's "a thing of that past" in general.
    A mutual misunderstanding, huh? Well, maybe...

  8. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny B View Post
    cwmbran, are you saying that men are just naturally more inclined to commit suicide than women? Like, there's a male-suicide gene or something? It's just you seem keen on pointing out that men commit suicide more than women, yet the possible causes you suggest (overwork, stress, economic inequality) affect women more than men.
    its clear what i'm saying, read between the lines & then all will "seem" as it should be, seem?

    there's enough there for you to excavate thru, if you can be arsed, or you could spend a small portion of your day googling around various sources who will all unreservedly confirm the same thing......that death by suicide is in the majority of case samples reviewed indicative of a male demographic around a certain age bracket

    if you'd like it spelled for you, i'd check Luka's point about race to the infested chancre sore pit of capitalism, compounded by a health service unfit for purpose

    fkn genes? come come Sir, you're better than that


    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    i think it's glib because, well, imagine someone coming to you, well Benny I actually want to end it all I'm sufffering so much in this world i can no longer bear it nad i don't understand, it's all beyond my capacity to understand, i can't take it any more

    and you go

    oh yeah right. that's just patriarchy mate.

    it's just maybe not that helpful

    exactly

    patriarchy is the latest buzz word of an increasingly angry left-wing agitation group who misrepresent key social problems by blanketing them with this catch-all terminology

    it doesnt get to the core of this specific issue & serves to misrepresent already muddy waters....the fact its spouted by someone who works in directing funding for new innovative therapeutic research methods is mind boggling

    patriarchy?

    ffs

    if you work on as many cases of medical negligence & have to pick up the pieces of as much professional incompetence & mess as i do, the bigger picture would start to seep thru, but until people turn for help with their mental health society as a whole has no idea just how fragmented Britain's mental health services really are

    so, if someone, anyone, male or female, goes to their GP and says, as above "i'm thinking of ending it all Dr Benny", chances are that GP will dose them with an inadequate anti-depressant, delay referral to a CMHT because of waiting lists, which may just be the start of said patient's problems, and from there suicide risks become elevated, because theres a galaxy sized gap between what a GP can or will do & being sectioned.....that is the real abyss & until you're forced to navigate it nothing else compares

    capitalism is the main culprit, vast swathes of post-industrial service sector industries, people looking for help from a heath service that simply doesnt want to know (as an institution)

    parenthesis - some of society's purest form of angels work in the health sector & there are angels in CMHT's, but they are leaving the service at record levels due to stress, because of structural incapacity, because of a management culture that preaches "do more with less and delay, delay, delay, just look at the waiting lists...." & now the capstone of Brexit

    if anyone here wants to help or raise their levels of understanding, try volunteering for 1hr a week at your local MIND and record what you see

    only empathy can generate real understanding & i see little of that here

  9. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwmbran-city View Post
    death by suicide is in the majority of case samples reviewed indicative of a male demographic around a certain age bracket
    Wtf, man? literally nobody is disputing this

  10. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwmbran-city View Post

    if you'd like it spelled for you, i'd check Luka's point about race to the infested chancre sore pit of capitalism,
    Actually it was bboon who said this, so who are you beefing with exactly? You're the one who's going off on one without reading what other people are saying properly

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    to imply with comedic tongue in cheek irony or whether your motivation to drop a genetic misnomer in was to rile, thats what i was replying to, hence the repetition.

    if that riles you, address it like an adult, because its an adult subject & its just possible, just, that other people commenting know what they're talking about.

    if you work on the frontline in mental health, respect, if you dont & throw genetic bs into such a discussion followed by ridiculing someone, dont expect to be taken seriously as an adult on this specific subject subsequently.

    over to you Dr B.
    Last edited by cwmbran-city; 31-01-2018 at 11:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    im not proposing we throw it in the bin. just pointing out the problem with these grand, big picture, diagnostic words. capitalism is another good one. there's a tendency for their definitions (always vague and ill-defined at the best of times) to elide into 'everything' or 'the way things are'

    Reserve army of labour, surplus value and impersonal domination by the commodity form can explain a lot though re a political economy of mh. and social reproduction can help in the understanding of how patriarchy is able to sustain itself to decouple the two is wrongheaded tho ime.

    But for most people leftists included, capitalism is either an antipathy to consumerist culture or dissatisfaction with management rather than a set of social relations.

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  14. #148
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    hitting the Volcano helps

    never in the field of special-fx consumption was so little expended on so stoned

  15. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwmbran-city View Post
    to imply with comedic tongue in cheek irony or whether your motivation to drop a genetic misnomer in was to rile, thats what i was replying to, hence the repetition.

    if that riles you, address it like an adult, because its an adult subject & its just possible, just, that other people commenting know what they're talking about.

    if you work on the frontline in mental health, respect, if you dont & throw genetic bs into such a discussion followed by ridiculing someone, dont expect to be taken seriously as an adult on this specific subject subsequently.

    over to you Dr B.
    I didn't ask you intending to rile, and I'm not riled. Slightly exasperated maybe.

    Lots of people do have biological determinist assumptions, so I guess it's good to know that you think the genetic thing is bs. However, if you read what I said, your explanations regartding lack of funding, interest, capitalism et etc are all well and good, nobody was disputing them, but they don't explain the disparity between male and female suicide numbers. Baboon offered some good ideas as to why that might be (and shone a light on some important contributing factors to poor mental health in general) and you couldn't have been more dismissive.

  16. #150
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    Lol this thread has been well and truly derailed. I was responding initially to this comment by Cwmbran, who was the person who introduced 'patriarchy' into this discussion (I never mentioned the word except in quoting him), but now seems to have completely forgotten this and is railing against its use!:

    "Suicide by men under 50 is now 1 of the leading causes of death for this demographic. If it was any other form of disease or disorder, it would be treated like an international crisis. But because of the all pervasive Guardian-obsessed "patriarchy" & the fact most men are disposable workhorses in the labour market, nothing is done."

    It's very well established that men are considerably less likely to seek help from mental health services (look it up). This was then distorted as suggesting that I was appealing to some kind of natural 'gender traits', whereas my point was the opposite - that gender is socialised, and therefore the traits associated with it are only contingent and can be changed. By men.

    I never said - obviously - that there aren't many other factors that contribute towards high incidences of male suicide. But in invoking male suicide in the first place as a special case, we are talking about the differences between men and women, and not about factors that equally affect them, such as a broken mental health system.

    Tea, genuinely good to see you back here! (but please read what I actually said)

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