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Thread: labour + antisemitism

  1. #76

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    thats the relationship

  2. #77
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    I do wonder if social liberalism is possible without economic (neo-)liberalism.
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  3. #78

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    neoliberalism is woke plutocracy

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  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    neoliberalism is woke plutocracy
    You can be a funny fucker sometimes, you know.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 07-06-2018 at 02:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Did everyone miss the bit where I said it can exacerbate existing inequalities? Including, obviously, racial ones, given the big correlations between race, wealth/class, education and opportunity? 'Treating everyone the same' is obviously not going to lead to everyone being the same, and is likely to make inequality worse in fact, when there is so much inequality to start with. I still think it's a stretch to say this is racist, as such. The racial inequalities were there already, hundreds of years ago.

    Not quite sure what all this has to do with labour + antisemitism.
    That is gold. You introduced neoliberalism into the bloody conversation by the bizarre contention that there couldn't be a 'hard right' of the Labour Party, for god's sakes!

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  8. #81
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  9. #82
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    I had a look through the IHRA guidelines this morning, as I wasn't familiar with them, and it's a pretty reasonable document around a very difficult issue. It even explicitly states that " criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic", which is pretty damn clear.

    The whole debacle seems confused, judging from third party accounts I've read. The key issue seems to be around this example of anti-Semitism:
    "Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."

    Taking the actual words as presented, this seems entirely right - there's a world of difference between being allowed to critically evaluate what happened during the creation of Israel on a practical level and highlight mass abuses of human rights with racial dimensions, and claiming that the existence of Israel is in and of itself a racist endeavour or similar.

    I just don't see why Labour can't seem to take the lead on this issue in some way, and highlight the need to exercise real linguistic clarity when talking about issues connected with Israel, so that there is no ambiguity about what is meant.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 26-07-2018 at 10:02 AM.

  10. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Taking the actual words as presented, this seems entirely right - there's a world of difference between being allowed to critically evaluate what happened during the creation of Israel on a practical level and highlight mass abuses of human rights with racial dimensions, and claiming that the existence of Israel is in and of itself a racist endeavour or similar.
    Unfortunately, both in conception and execution, the state of Israel is a racist endeavour. Explicitly so.

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    Can you explain how its very existence is a racist endeavour (obviously I agree with the execution part)?

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    You cant separate its existence from its execution. It was conceived of as a colonial state specifically for Jewish people and non-Jews (as we know) do not enjoy the same rights as Jews by conception and design.

    If a bunch of white supremacists got together and explicitly stated that they wished to found a state for white people alone, with non-whites either being forbidden, or tolerated only if they were not allowed own property, build houses, vote etc... would that be a racist endeavour?
    Last edited by droid; 30-07-2018 at 12:25 PM.

  13. #86
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    There was a grimly illuminating moment on the radio here when the Israeli ambassador to Ireland was asked to explain the new law, passed a couple of weeks ago which legally codifies Israel's apartheid policies.

    His answer? "This doesnt change anything, this is how things have been for decades anyway".

  14. #87
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    OK, I see your point - I'm reading up on all the discriminatory legislation, as I didn't know too much about the specifics.

    But then is there a right in principle to self-determination for Jewish people, or any other people who have faced mass atrocities in the countries in which significant numbers of their populations resided? If such discriminatory legislation was not present, and equal rights for those outside the majority population were guaranteed. It seems like an irresolvable question.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 26-07-2018 at 11:05 AM.

  15. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    If a bunch of white supremacists got together and explicitly stated that the wished to found a state for white people alone, with non-whites either being forbidden, or tolerated only if they were not allowed own property, build houses, vote etc... would that be a racist endeavour?
    This counterfactual only works in the context of a parallel universe where a dictator attempted to eradicate white people from the face of the earth, though, doesn't it?

    Alternatively, try your sentence again with 'black' substituted for 'white' and you'll find the question is a bit more complex than you've presented it.
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  16. #89
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    Yeah, its not like Zionism predates Nazism by about 50 years or anything.

  17. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    OK, I see your point - I'm reading up on all the discriminatory legislation, as I didn't know too much about the specifics.

    But then is there a right in principle to self-determination for Jewish people, or any other people who have faced mass atrocities in the countries in which significant numbers of their populations resided? If such discriminatory legislation was not present, and equal rights for those outside the majority population were guaranteed. It seems like an irresolvable question.
    Well, the difference is that nationality and rights in other countries are not generally based on ethnicity, or are at least not explicitly stated as such. Anyone in theory can go to another country and become a citizen and gain full rights after fulfilling certain criteria. Not so in Israel.

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