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Thread: labour + antisemitism

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    Yeah, its not like Zionism predates Nazism by about 50 years or anything.
    Oh god, not this again...

    Are you seriously trying to pretend the foundation of Israel had nothing to do with certain events of the early 1940s? Or that anti-Semitism was invented in Germany in 1933?

    I mean, someone reading your last few posts in this thread might be led to think Israel was founded for no other reason than that Jews just like to feel they're a bit different, special and better than everyone else...
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  2. #92
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    zionism is a mix of historical christian apocalyptic messianism and secular nationalism tbh. Its roots extend way back to the 1600s (by non jews) british aristocrat scum.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    This counterfactual only works in the context of a parallel universe where a dictator attempted to eradicate white people from the face of the earth, though, doesn't it?

    Alternatively, try your sentence again with 'black' substituted for 'white' and you'll find the question is a bit more complex than you've presented it.
    it wasn't just a dictator alone. it was the collective efforts of european capital in crisis after the dying down of the revolutionary wave from 1917-27. The emerging capitalists in the USSR actively aided him before the war, as early as 1933. Britain was mostly alright with him. ditto france, romania, hungary and greece. most of civil society (the intellectual and scientific elite) were antisemitic to boot, had been for hundreds of years by this point. even many social democrats and communists sided with the fascists.

    And here's an actual counterfactual: the panthers always talk about black neighbourhoods being under permanent fascist police occupation.
    Last edited by thirdform; 27-07-2018 at 05:07 PM.

  4. #94
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    im not saying it was just an inevitable outcome of economic determinism or whatever. that would be crude, grossly inaccurate, and antisemitic.

    But the specificities of the situation need to be analysed.

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  6. #96
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    gaza is a concentration camp. we collude in that so it's not to take the moral high ground but fax are fax

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  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    cant reason with a cop
    thats why hes a remainer then!

    no worry the lads will sort him out.
    Last edited by thirdform; 28-07-2018 at 12:21 PM.

  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    thats why hes a remainer then!

    no worry the lads will sort him out.
    Yeah yeah, I know. You won. I'm trying to get over it.
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  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    it wasn't just a dictator alone. it was the collective efforts of european capital in crisis after the dying down of the revolutionary wave from 1917-27. The emerging capitalists in the USSR actively aided him before the war, as early as 1933. Britain was mostly alright with him. ditto france, romania, hungary and greece. most of civil society (the intellectual and scientific elite) were antisemitic to boot, had been for hundreds of years by this point. even many social democrats and communists sided with the fascists.
    Yes yes, I know all that. But the Holocaust was first and foremost a German endeavour though, wasn't it? Even Fascist Italy wasn't particularly anti-Semitic until it started to follow Germany's lead in the late 30s.

    My main point though is that while obviously the biggest single anti-Semitic atrocity in history, it was really the logical conclusion of centuries of oppression and mass murder of Jews, going back to the high middle ages (never mind still earlier violence by both pagan and Christian Romans, the early Muslim Arabs etc.). And it didn't even end there - the last massacre of Jews in central Europe happened in Poland in 1946, and there were purges of Jews in the USSR in the 1950s. So I don't really see how any thinking, feeling person can begrudge Jews who felt, especially after WWII, 'we need to set up somewhere to live where this will never happen again'.

    Of course it should never have been implemented in the way that it was and should never have happened at the expense of a people already living there, and the Israel that was created is a brutal, criminal state. I've never said otherwise. At the same time, droid's 'Israel exists purely because Jews are racist' narrative is itself historically ignorant and shamefully racist.
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  11. #100
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    Fuck off Tea.

  12. #101
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    Lol.

    You know, of all the times you've accused me of being an apologist for racism, imperialism, kicking puppies in the face etc. etc., I don't think I've ever just told you to fuck off.

    I bet there's an excellent Yiddish word for someone who can dish it out but can't take it.
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  13. #102
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    Right, so lets take a look at what youve done here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    This counterfactual only works in the context of a parallel universe where a dictator attempted to eradicate white people from the face of the earth, though, doesn't it?
    Clearly referring to Hitler, to which I replied:

    "Yeah, its not like Zionism predates Nazism by about 50 years or anything.
    A direct response to your specific assertion. So then you decide to move your goalposts to include 'all antisemitism', and then invent a strawman that has nothing to do with anything I said

    Are you seriously trying to pretend the foundation of Israel had nothing to do with certain events of the early 1940s? Or that anti-Semitism was invented in Germany in 1933?

    I mean, someone reading your last few posts in this thread might be led to think Israel was founded for no other reason than that Jews just like to feel they're a bit different, special and better than everyone else...
    We've been through this before, so clearly the best thing is just to ignore your wilful distortions, but no, once again to go all in and invent something I didn't say, whilst also deciding to slander me as racist at the same time:

    At the same time, droid's 'Israel exists purely because Jews are racist' narrative is itself historically ignorant and shamefully racist.
    I did not create that, or any narrative, I simply pointed out a fact. You can make the argument that the foundation of Israel, like the foundation of Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo etc. as ethno-states was justified, but it cant be denied that it is implicitly racist.

    So yes, please fuck off with your tiresome distortions, fallacies and slander.

    I bet there's a yiddish word for someone who's so lacking in self awareness that virtually every argument they make is riddled with intellectual dishonesty.

  14. #103
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    it's not a lack of self-awareness it's a mission to obfuscate distort and derail. it's a consistent pattern over many years. its willful sabotage.

  15. #104
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    early (sporadic) muslim persecution of jews is hardly the same as modern antisemitism is it.

    in modern antisemitism the archetypical jew is an eternal omnipresent conspirator.

  16. #105
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    mr tea gets paid 25p by the state for every post he makes gumming the gears of dissensus and muddying the pellucid waters of perfect thought

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