why is experimental electronic

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
i think thirdform had a critique of jungle (or more accurately the narrative surrounding it) along these lines. he was basically saying that talking about jungle as 'multicultural' was a misnomer because it didn't fold in all of london's ethnicities.

if art/entertainment's role is to capture a culture and zeitgeist then it's inherently obliged to cater and magnify a niche. music and subculture are inseparable.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
the initial question, taken without any kind of implied value judgement, is quite interesting though. people need to post examples of this type of music. i don't know what it is. i don't think i've ever heard it. i can't answer the question if i don't know what we're on about.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
yeah I mean the obvious things right? the Western academic tradition it originates in only recently started becoming more diverse (+ wasn't at all in the prime of Stockhausen, GRM, etc), the technology was prohibitively rare/expensive for a long time, access to subcultural capital, market demand. if you use "experimental electronic" as description rather than genre then there's a vast, rich history of people of color, it's just almost always in service to the dancefloor, radio, whatever other medium of consumption - usually the only $ in avant-garde is jobs in academia, or if you're really fortunate composing soundtracks or something. if you go by description rather than genre then you have Patrick Adams, Roger Troutman, Juan Atkins, many many more.

there is kind of a performative circular reasoning in the production-consumption-classification of experimental electronic as thirdform means - William Onyeabor was undoubtedly making experimental electronic music but not "experimental electronic". that can shade over into actual racism (c.f. Stockhausen + African rhythms, which I too immediately thought of) but is nowadays generally the kind of relatively benign self-selection blissblogger is talking about rather than active exclusion. I do suspect the further you can go back in history the more that balance would tip toward uncomfortable racial-cultural nonsense, tho tbf there's also a long tradition of a section of the European avant-garde welcoming non-European influences.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I did try to think of every non-Euro/U.S./Japan avant-garde electronic person I could + all I came up with was:

Francis Bebey, Mammane Sani, Jocy de Oliveira, Mimaroglu, Gökçen Kaynatan, Dariush Dolat-Shahi. I'm sure that's not exhaustive, but still.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
i think thirdform had a critique of jungle (or more accurately the narrative surrounding it) along these lines. he was basically saying that talking about jungle as 'multicultural' was a misnomer because it didn't fold in all of london's ethnicities.

if art/entertainment's role is to capture a culture and zeitgeist then it's inherently obliged to cater and magnify a niche. music and subculture are inseparable.

I didn't formulate that critique well and yes as luka says noone wants to eat fusion cuisine.

But it was more based on the hc continuum, hardcore and jungle specifically, generally being more than 50% white. It has always been a quintessentially english music (or at least a 90s idea of English, and there's nothing wrong with that inherently, well there is through inherent exclusion, but not musically, as such) this is why desi/banghra, middle eastern pop, soka, etc etc have never been able to penetrate apart from a few signifiers, same with vague nods to Latin. And then by 97 it essentially became a white techno, I mean I think the tech step sound was welcome compared to jump up + nico was a bad man but zone of fruitless intensifications etc. We've been here before. (not that there haven't been dnb tracks that have been good after 97, thats absurd but yeh the genre as a hole...)

Grime being more of a radio format has kind of bucked that trend a bit so I think that's definitely a pro.

i mean blissblogger acknowledges all of this in his book so no need to retread.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I wasn't necessarily talking about sonic properties, like I was in the psychedelia thread.

There's a tendancy to stereotype certain sounds as black brown or white but that reveals more about how we are embedded in certain methods of cultural consumption. like luka said:
blackness represents many ideals for people often contradictory.

Nor do I want to castigate the rise of coloured middle classes as a phenomenon in themselves, although ultimately the m/c has no future...

Nor do I think that working class people can't be into abstract art.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
There is kind of a performative circular reasoning in the production-consumption-classification of experimental electronic as thirdform means - William Onyeabor was undoubtedly making experimental electronic music but not "experimental electronic". that can shade over into actual racism (c.f. Stockhausen + African rhythms, which I too immediately thought of) but is nowadays generally the kind of relatively benign self-selection blissblogger is talking about rather than active exclusion. I do suspect the further you can go back in history the more that balance would tip toward uncomfortable racial-cultural nonsense, tho tbf there's also a long tradition of a section of the European avant-garde welcoming non-European influences.

yeah this is what i was getting at. I mean I subscribe to boomkat so its turned my head in a big way and they are better than other similar retailers in promoting experimental music made by PoC, still i believe more could be done.

But aside from boomkat, at what point do you think this is a self-referential thing when you're running a water bowl through fucking GRM tools? or noncharacteristic drone. *despairing*
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
what is experimental electronic in this context? basically IDM and its offshoots? aphex and his descendents?

Well idm is a weird one innit i don't think many of those guys thought of what they did as completely separate from the club but it then sort of became that way when idm artists started referencing other idm artists, essentially in the US with no relation to detroit techno/80s electro and jungle.
 

Numbers

Well-known member
Experimental electronic music is only white if you do not recognize both the experimental and electronic character of what is usually discussed on this forum.

Even within the limits of 'serious' experimental music, it's not as clear cut. Last weeks I have seen NON mentioned everywhere, getting rave reviews, deservedly, and they make a big point about blackness. That said, I am not sure categorising and appreciating music according to the distinction white/not white (or black/not black) is such a fruitful and positive endeavour.
 
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