why is experimental electronic

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
is it the consciously middle class (or academic) cultivation of abstract aesthetics?

or was it a category designed to disavow the black and brown musics it relies on, to make marketing more palatable to a certain oppositional demographic?

I can't but feel that if you're not white and into all of this stuff, you're essentially a weirdo. whereas its almost a right of passage to go there in much hip music circles.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
As much as fetishisation of technology sonically ultimately blinds itself to politics, i do not think that the erotic fascination with tech is necessarily intrinsically bad.

Nor do i believe that all music has to be pop, i mean it's a very recent invention, globally that is.

And it's not as if higher musical dimensions solely exist in Europe or jazz.
 

luka

Well-known member
what is experimental electronic in this context? basically IDM and its offshoots? aphex and his descendents?
 

luka

Well-known member
probably just an atavistic western dualism/separation of mind and body head and heart at root
if you are saying what i think you are saying.
 

droid

Well-known member
Such a white category, more than other genres?

Well, its roots are in the European & American academies, so sure, but I cant help but think of Stockhausen complaining about Aphex Twin's 'African Rhythms'.

But there's been radical electronic music enclaves all in India, the middle east & North Africa amongst other places. Also, the new wave is latin/queer/black/mixed/female:

 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Interesting topic. I've nothing informed to say about it but here are some thoughts:

I'm not sure if IDM was about disavowing black music from the POV of its practitioners or something projected onto or discovered in it by music critics. Like I doubt Aphex Twin determinedly set out to make 'white jungle' or something, but he came from a different cultural background and that naturally pushed him in different directions. And avant garde electronic music has roots in the very white world of 20th century classical music (John Cage, Stockhausen, et al) and conceptual art.

Having said that, there is always a degree of this in certain areas of the nerdosphere - preferring to listen to Grime instrumentals (or dubstep, as Luka would say) than Grime with MCs. (Again, this usually wouldn't be a consciously racist thing so much as a matter of the culture people come from.)

Kanye is an interesting figure in this regard, especially given his recent attempt at divorcing himself in some way from his blackness - he started out sampling soul records and over the years has rebelled more and more against that traditional black music role to incorporate 'white' Euro influences.

I think people who make this music and listen to it are probably seen as weirdos from the POV of most ppl white and black but there's perhaps more freedom for white ppl to pursue these more abstract artforms without being accused of being effete or bourgeoisie or whatever.

As you say, this sort of art (not just music) is very middle-class, perhaps because it requires a certain degree of education/'cultivation' to understand why listening to e.g. abrasive white noise might be pleasurable or interesting and not just anhedonic and pretentious. The rise of Kanye et al in rap music is probably to do with the concurrent rise of the black middle class in America - and the (comparative) freedom that comes with this to explore and experiment with identity, sexuality, gender and sound.
 

luka

Well-known member
lets face it art and fashion are mainstream at the moment. topshop probably started, or H&M
 

luka

Well-known member
street rappers trading off authenticity have personal stylists and a highly considered graphic design aesthetic.
 

droid

Well-known member
Id argue that the academy is in fact a victim of its own success. The story of late 20th century music & beyond is the permeation of popular & genre music with experimental electronic techniques, aesthetics and sonics.
 

luka

Well-known member
Id argue that the academy is in fact a victim of its own success. The story of late 20th century music & beyond is the permeation of popular & genre music with experimental electronic techniques, aesthetics and sonics.

i dont know how direct the lines of influence were the most part but the bottom line is everything is up for grabs now and those old demaractions have lost any force they once had. everyones off the reservation now.
 

droid

Well-known member
Sure, Im not necessarily arguing for straight lines, (though it can be done with varying degrees of granularity & bullshit: Stockhausen>Kraftwerk>Bambaataa>Electro>... or Reich>tapeloops>sampling>jungle etc... ), but generally there are huge seams of popular music that have much more in common with various aspects of 20th century avant garde than with previous generations of pop music.
 

luka

Well-known member
yeah agree on both points. and you can forget about straight lines from now on.
no more record collector commodity fetishism.
 

luka

Well-known member
thirdform can you take responsibility for your thread please lol.
take us somewhere. --------------->
 

blissblogger

Well-known member
i'm not sure the fact that a form of music is predominantly made or listened to by one group of people is necessarily a problem, a worry, or even a mystery

i don't think you can deduce from that that there is something exclusionary about it, or that there's a failing about it on the formal level that needs to be corrected (by an infusion of some other music tradition or musical qualities, conscious engagement with other sounds by its creators)

there are self-selecting forces at work

no music can be everything to everybody

the more fiercely and fanatically it pursues one line of development, the more it moves away from others kinds of possibilities and feelings, and the more it distances itself from other communities of taste
 
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