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Thread: Jacob Rees-Mogg

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    I don't understand how he could be viewed as anything but a callous, despicable wretch? And arguably the worst and most destructive PM Britain has ever had (granted, he may be beaten to the post on that one).

    Bemused.
    i wouldn't claim cameron didn't cause problems - but unlike osbourne or rees-mogg i don't believe his motives were self-interest. this only matters in the context that most people on the left have something like an intellectual block in understanding the ethical motivations of those on the right; exhibiting such *shock* at the brexit and trump victories.

    the left might stop for a moment and consider that - sincerely - people don't like authoritarian leadership - are suspicious of so-called idealists' ability to "selflessly" manage the state.

    a great proportion of people on the right don't vote that way *necessarily* out of self-interest. some do - but it isn't just "false consciousness" that causes the working classes to vote for the right. in the uk many "normal" people are innately suspicious of the left - and it's patronising to put that down to dacres and murdochs.

    i'd agree that the right ARE MORE IGNORANT of the value of the state and, yes, have played into the hands of global business (that chart droid posts is chilling). but the left should get past the personality politics and this endless pilloring of supposed secret cabals. they'd be much more effective.

    to his credit corbyn doesn't get locked into this - and if he wins THIS will be why - because he can touch more deeply the key issue of COMPASSION and ditch the strident/student politics of hatred.


  2. #32
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    think youre in the wrong meeting Matt. sorry mate.

  3. #33
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    Agree with your post Matthew mostly, but Corbyn is an exemplar of what you're talking about, rather than any kind of exception.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    i wouldn't claim cameron didn't cause problems - but unlike osbourne or rees-mogg i don't believe his motives were self-interest. this only matters in the context that most people on the left have something like an intellectual block in understanding the ethical motivations of those on the right; exhibiting such *shock* at the brexit and trump victories.

    a great proportion of people on the right don't vote that way *necessarily* out of self-interest. some do - but it isn't just "false consciousness" that causes the working classes to vote for the right. in the uk many "normal" people are innately suspicious of the left - and it's patronising to put that down to dacres and murdochs.
    Still bemused. Right-wing politicians and those who vote for the right are ... two totally different things. Don't understand what the various motivations of Tory voters has to do with Cameron being a self-interested twat who has utter contempt for poorer people and vulnerable people. So not all self-interest, some good old fashioned discriminatory hatreds too.

    But if we are now talking about Tory voters instead - why is it patronising to say that the Dacres and Murdochs prey on people's hopes for a better future by lying to them and stoking up hatred? I can see why the term 'false consciousness' is not ideal, but everyone is susceptible to being swayed by propaganda, and the likelihood of that happening becomes greater the more someone has to believe in a better future cos their present is a bit shit (economically speaking). The papers you named specifically target people who are in that situation.

    And to state the obvious, many millions of working class people don't vote for the Tories, even if their support among working class people is indeed increasing according to the stats as things get more desperate.

    While many on the Left might have been shocked in one sense at the Brexit and Trump votes, then I think this would be the shock of disappointment rather than the shock of disbelief (perhaps felt by the centre) - after all, just history all over again, isn't it, the right wing profiting from economic pain and a deficit of hope.

    And of course people like authoritarian leadership - they show tacit approval for a system that shrinks the life choices of the majority, because they're told it's the only option.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 06-08-2018 at 12:50 AM.

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  6. #35

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    OK, who was down Somerset last week?

  7. #36
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    SHIT! What a wasted opportunity. This afternoon I drove past JRM in his vintage Bentley (naturally), or one of them, on the M5 in or near his manor in NE Somerset. It was definitely him, the plate even ended "MOG". I actually asked my girlfriend if she was prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice with me to take him out, for the common good, like. Sadly we bottled it.

    Sorry for my cowardice, everyone.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 11-08-2018 at 06:11 PM.
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  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    why is it patronising to say that the Dacres and Murdochs prey on people's hopes for a better future by lying to them and stoking up hatred?
    because the assumption in doing that is that the sheeple are incapable of making up their own minds

    ultimately though it's not a position i take much pleasure defending so i should just shut my fat gob

  10. #38
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    information about the world beyond what is received through the senses comes through the media and the media is owned by a vanishingly small number of self-interested individuals. making up our minds about things which, for us, only exist, in any meaningful sense, as images on a television, or as words in a newspaper or on the internet, is...

    in the nicest possible way, i think your take on this is pollyannaish in the extreme. it's not an adult view of reality.

  11. #39
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    that near infinite reservoir of information is filtered to us through a tiny number of pipelines. this is stuff they teach you at school.

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    Very good, but you're missing one crucial detail.

    info.jpg
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  15. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    information about the world beyond what is received through the senses comes through the media and the media is owned by a vanishingly small number of self-interested individuals. making up our minds about things which, for us, only exist, in any meaningful sense, as images on a television, or as words in a newspaper or on the internet, is...

    in the nicest possible way, i think your take on this is pollyannaish in the extreme. it's not an adult view of reality.
    yes, i do have some faith in "normal" people's ability to make rational decisions based on stuff they experience in life itself.

    i don't think, for instance, that the political reality is simply a reflection of psychological coercion.

    and it's actually a more cogent explanation than a big conspiracy isn't it?

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  18. #44

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    I think there's some truth in both perspectives, but: it's not simply a few newspapers (whose editorial line I dislike) that constitute "the media" which influence us, its television, social media, newspapers, the universities, the arts, one another, etc, etc; and it seems a bit too convenient if the way influence works is that my ideological opponents are being manipulated and taken advantage of, whereas I am free from influence.

  19. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    because the assumption in doing that is that the sheeple are incapable of making up their own minds
    No, just that people fed misinformation will make decisions that don't reflect their best interests (in the short run, or the long run, depending).

    I actually think it's more patronising to pretend that the majority of people have chosen the current state of affairs in full knowledge of the fact it wouldn't benefit them. They're not that stupid!

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