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Thread: the conservative view of history

  1. #16
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    well the classical marxist idea was that there was a global uneven chain of capitalism, and colonial, semi-colonial and semi-capitalist countries would have anti-feudal revolutions by the fact of them being the weakist link of the chain but the bourgeoisie would have to realise working class demands like democracy because of their timidity of the w/c. the problem is the permanent revolution failed and the working class wasn't able to pressurise the bourgeoisie, mainly because fascist methods were exported from europe to the periphery. none of the afroasian revolutions progressed onto the proletarian revolution.

    So, idk. I'm just as hopeless as you.

  2. #17
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    like the problem is not the working class took power and it was bad. that idn't even happen apart from some very short spells russia 1917, spain 36, a little bit in China 67.

    very short spells that you can't really say raised the [proletariat to the status of ruling class.

  3. #18
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    im a revolutionary in faith but intellectually i don't have the answers. i don't try say mine is the right perspective i just nudge a load of post-dubstep bores in the direction of critical theory.

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  5. #19
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    the anarchists see this failing in the leninist party structure, but then they say because russia and the colonial countries were semi-feudal. but if we have to wait for communism to be achieved when capitalism has reached its absolute limit then let's be real that is more likely to confirm marx's second contention, the ruin of the contending classes.

    Like the anti-party criticism sees the party as autonomous from social forces rather than being subject to it. otherwise you know, it's correct to criticise leninism.

  6. #20
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    on the faith thing i can't imagine being oh it's all fucked cos the logical endpoint of that is just nihilism and that's like idk, i feel like only people with the social circles can really indulge in that. it's a bit racketeering isn't it.

  7. #21
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    this is interesting padraig. im still trying to work out my position on it.

    https://libcom.org/library/when-insurrections-die

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig (u.s.) View Post
    the withering away of the state seems a lot more likely to produce a dystopia than the obverse, at least to me. tech bro philosopher-kings, panopticon societies, etc.
    you know you're onto something there the state has been undertheorised in marxist theory. Lenin's revisions of it beingan apparatus are not really sufficient. it's not just a machine is it. the machine can be dormant but the inputs can still feed into it and the outputs can still receive.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    I am trying to make an opening in theory to encapsulate the conservative tendancies of the left as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    good vs bad nations.
    Well yeah, there are plenty on the left who think this way, too - they just tend to like the countries that conservatives hate and vice-versa. (Edit: although maybe that's exactly the point you were making?)
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 18-09-2018 at 09:10 AM.
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  10. #24

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    I thought this might have something to do with the likes of Andrew Roberts and Niall Ferguson.

    Who would you count as conservative historians? Is there a conservative school, generation or tendency we are referring to?

    It seems to me we are in a very good period for historical writing of all tendencies - such as, say, Charles Moore's biography of Margaret Thatcher or Stephen Kotkin's biography of Stalin.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    personal as opposed to impersonal domination. the naturalisation of personal domination as transhistorical.
    I'd be interested to hear you enlarge on this.

    I mean, if the idea is that on one hand you have the traditional idea of Great (and Terrible) Men being the prime movers of history, and on the other hand an explanation totally in terms of impersonal things like the distribution of resources (the Jared Diamond approach), class struggle, Spenglerian culture-cycles or whatever, then isn't there room for a bit of both?

    To take a pertinent example: you could say that the social-cultural-economic conditions in the USA since 2008, or maybe 2001, made it possible or even likely that "someone like Trump" would become POTUS. The trouble with this argument is that no-one is "like Trump", and I find it hard to imagine how anyone without his very particular personal characteristics could have come from nowhere (politically speaking), embarked on a political career aged nearly 70 and become president five minutes later.

    Of course, if the general conditions and mood in the USA hadn't been what they were then Trump presumably either wouldn't have won, or wouldn't have run in the first place, so it does go both ways. Significant people can influence the social landscape, and the social landscape shapes the people that grow up in it, so maybe the personal vs impersonal view is to an extent a false dichotomy?
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 27-09-2018 at 02:29 PM.
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  12. #26
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    well if you see trump only in terms of the US maybe. but we seem to be living in a global reactionary period. all the uprisings of 2008-2012 failed or were recuperated into the state machine. not just occupy, greece, Egypt, Syria Spain Italy etc etc etc.

    Like history is comprised of jump cuts and crescendos right. like i said we live in extremely complex systems with all sorts of emergent properties. which is why i don't get the kind of middle class fear of revolution being unpredictable. well we know so little even in non-revolutionary situations. how do you expect us to predict? all this tends to be is i like being a professional.

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  14. #27
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    who knows what would have happened if the uprisings spread to Russia and Putin was overthrown? none of us tbh.

  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    who knows what would have happened if the uprisings spread to Russia and Putin was overthrown? none of us tbh.
    That's an interesting thing to ponder but it's hard to think of a country where that's less likely to happen. I'd almost expected it to happen in China before it happened in Russia.
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  16. #29
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    you say that but there are a lot of yellow unions in democratic turkey you know. I think Vlad's authoritarianism is not as out of the ordinary as people make it out to be.

  17. #30
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    it's basically the far right colonising liberal democracy right. democracy is identified with majoritarianism, subversion and disinformation. but actually it is still democracy, however much contorted it may be. cos democracy ain't an ideal unto itself, it's a mechanism by which specific social relations in a specific period are guuarded right.

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