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Thread: shredders

  1. #16
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    derek bailey is anti-shred for me. especially on the album mirakle where he goes into free funk territory.

    not really guitar solos either. just weird dissonant elongated intervals.

  2. #17
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    shred is one of those "know it when you hear it" things with universally agreed areas but no clear boundaries

    so just to weigh in on some previous examples in thread

    Maggot Brain - of course

    Marquee Moon - probably my favorite guitar solo ever and definitely technical (those dudes were into weird scales and tunings), but also definitely not shred

    (btw this pair - along with 1983 A Merman I Should Turn to Be - the holy trinity of sprawling weird Americana guitar epics)

    TV Eye - obv great but not really, Asheton isn't ever playing enough notes to really shred, just hammering out those vicious leads - tho ofc he is a big ancestor of atonal shredding

    Prince - of course. the last Let's Go Crazy solo is like Maggot Brain condensed into 10 very gnarly seconds.

  3. #18
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    idk improv or free jazz guitarists well enough to intelligently comment

    it's another world unto itself - see comment above potential fwd strangeness of music theory nerds

    it does spill out into the world more often and in more productive ways than like, Steve Vai or whatever

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  5. #19
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    just to be clear that shredding isn't only about woolly bros here's some modern ladies that fully shred


    this band is basic whatever serviceable indie rock except for whenever she starts SHREDDING YOUR FACE OFF

    really saw em live a couple years ago and she is truly awesome live


    pretty obvious one


    idk her songs super well so just picked one at random but she def shreds

    she has a super interesting style full of that weirdly approached tapping and the like, really unique (St. Vincent kinda too but hers is more clearly at least partly noise rock derived)

    you should the (unsurprising) brutal hater comments them and any other women shredder draws from music theory bros it is the worst

  6. #20
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    for the record I myself can play guitar pretty well but I don't have any of that theory background

    so much of shredding is about your gear setup too, your tone, producing sounds thru techniques or extending techniques or pedal fuckery or whatever

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    I also play the drums - serviceably but not as well as guitar where I can actually like do some things - and I will say it's really influenced how I think about this

    like probably most people here have heard or read funk is what you don't play, the negative space - chicken scratch guitar minimalism, ghost notes

    talking about that interaction between notes - the space between notes ("phrasing") - is kind of the emergent property

    the mysticism of the placement of notes - akin to the mysticism of keeping time as a drummer

    like ofc you can transcribe them exactly, but when you drill down to the subatomic level it dissipates into subjectivity

    like awhile when we were arguing about what exactly "swing" is and people couldn't even agree about what note in a measure the kick was actually on.

  8. #22
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    well, those are my thoughts on shredding

    I'll check back later and if you all have some interesting responses I will reveal how to get from Nile Rodgers to Napalm Death in 4 easy degrees of separation

    you'll be able to impress your cool jaded friends at your rave dad parties

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  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsey View Post
    I don't get it either but I respect how unpretentious about music metallers (that I've known) tend to be.

    Insofar as they don't feel compelled to go beyond "it rocks" as a response.

    Obviously I'm not saying metal musicians aren't pretentious because they sometimes dress up in wizards robes and so on...
    Oh Corpse, you sweet innocent spring child...

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  12. #24
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    metalheads are some of the most pretentious music fans on the earth. I used to play DAF and regis bits when i used to drink with em. 'But it's just 1/4 bar loops!' lol fuuuuck off.

    also this explains why so many of them in terms of dance music actualy like psytrance as well.

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    Tell a metalhead that Maiden and Priest are regressive and they shriek in fury.

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  15. #26
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    You mentioned the "you're my guitar hero" bit in the Clash song ("Complete Control", right?), Padraig

    The thing about shredding though - it seems to me as non-fan - is that it is just as meta in its own way as that Strummer ad lib

    all the shred solo is saying is "I'm your guitar hero" - they are eruptions of flash for flash's sake

    guitar solos until the advent of shred generally had some kind of expressive purpose - like the soliloquy in the midst of a drama - or at least they were developments of the melody

    but with shredding, you feel the sole purpose of the solo is to announce that it's a solo

    and often it seems like you could transpose a spurt of shredding from one song to another song without it really making much difference

    i guess a key break, or stage in the evolution, is when the solos in metal stop having any relation to blues - and the Paganini thing you mention kicks in (interesting that Satriani and Vai are both of Italian ancestry although it's Malmsteen that's the one who was actually influenced by Paganini right?)

    but you could be an expressive rather than masturbatory guitar soloist without having much or any relation to the blues - Tom Verlaine, the Edge, the dude in the Meat Puppets

  16. #27
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    well, a few things

    masturbatory v. expressive is a false dichotomy. when exactly does expression become masturbatory? is there some specific level of technicality, prolificity, "flash"?

    you also seem to be making a bunch of weird value judgments about purpose, utility, artifice

    like, why is flash bad? why is it worse than "developing the melody"? would you make a similar argument about blocky rave-stabs and uplifting pianos in ardkore?

    and how is the Edge's (or Kevin Shields's) pedal set-up not masturbatory? like, a lot of notes is bad but a ton of layers/fx is good? really, neither is good or bad, just to point out it's a silly argument.

    it's true plenty of King-style atonal shredding could easily be transposed between songs, but you could say that for popular motifs in virtually any music. how much drum choppage in jungle, how much post-punk angular guitar skronk, is basically interchangeable? is it a point against them?

    every genre has sonic markers - shredding is indistinguishably part of the current running from the harder end of thrash metal (Slayer, Dark Angel) thru proto-death/thrash (Possessed, early Death) thru classic death metal ca. 1987-1992 or so (after which death metal splits in a bunch of directions). go listen to Altars of Madness, Morbid Angel's 1st LP and probably the quintessential death metal qua death metal record, and tell me the shredding isn't intrinsic to the music. not just the notes but the way they're played, and the techniques - dive bombing, pinch harmonics, etc - used. you'll also notice that the lead/fill/solo line is blurred - there are shredded scalar fills all over the place.
    Last edited by padraig (u.s.); 14-10-2018 at 06:20 AM.

  17. #28
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    the truth is that very, very few guitar solos are memorable, shredding or otherwise. very few solos of any kind are memorable. that's why say Marquee Moon is so unusual.

    tbh it really comes across - like dissensus in general - you're just aesthetically/philosophically opposed to heavy shredding guitars, just don't grok them.

    which is fine ofc. there are things I don't grok. but, I gotta object to this bizarre utilitarian argument, from the foremost champion of ardkore.
    Last edited by padraig (u.s.); 14-10-2018 at 06:19 AM.

  18. #29
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    and btw Meat Puppets are a bad example of "expressive" guitars not closely connected to the blues

    for example, here they are in 1985 covering Sabbath, ZZ Top, and Good Golly Miss Molly


    but also they're basically psyched out alt-country ("cowpunk") and I mean, it's definitely not not the blues

    if you want an SST-type example you'd be a lot better off going with D. Boon

  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by blissblogger View Post
    when the solos in metal stop having any relation to blues
    this tbf true - that is a big part of the "sea change" I discussed, the shift to atonality and dissonance - vs. Iommi just going nuts in pentatonic

    I just disagree that it's in any way a negative evolution. it's not negative or positive, it just is.

    I will say the difference, for me, between heavy shredding guitars and Vai/Satriale is that the latter is what blissblogger is accusing, literally just some dude solipsistically going look how great, with no purpose outside that. whereas King/Hannemann lineage shredding - while certainly not immune from excess - is part of a sound, aesthetic, a greater whole. granted the line between the two isn't always sharply defined, but I think as a rule of thumb it's whether the shred is in ultimate service of the riff or not.

    this is also why Van Halen is one of the few (partial) exceptions to Malmsteenism. those dudes, at least sometimes, were able to - aided greatly by the charisma of David Lee Roth - incorporate his virtuoso schtick into songs greater than the sum of parts

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