padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Eddy Grant - yes, that one - invents minimal techno in 1977

my favorite Tom Moulton track, tbh. also a killer weed tune, that vocal just soaring and echoing everywhere.

not sure if this or Kiss Me Again has my favorite disco guitar solo



when the guitar kicks in during the breakdown @2:20 it always makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
do I need to continue, or can we stop now?

(sorry luka, we're into full-on dickswinging territory. guess you'll just have to avert your eyes or suffer thru it.)
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I have a pretty strong mind to come back and do a Patrick Adams post tomorrow, just because he is the best and deserves it

also just wanna note that judging all of disco by Chic would be like judging all of post-rock by Slint, but I didn't set the rules of this game I'm just playing by them

anyway, I'm looking forward to being told none of these can hold a candle to I Will Survive
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty

Africa laid it down pretty well, too! God knows how but the drummer keeps the so kick tight you can sync it to house traxx ;)
 

luka

Well-known member
we've evolved past this. you have to do the deep reading of the song now. you have to break down what you're hearing. dismantle it and lay out the working parts and define them.
 

luka

Well-known member
can't just post 25 youtubes of charity records and think that constitutes an argument.
have to make an effort these days. put some love into it.
))))))):love:(((((((
show us that you care. it's just spam otherwise. wallpaper made of sheets of spam. pink slimy spam paper.
 

blissblogger

Well-known member
Those are all fine records - nice bits of playing (disco never wanted for musicianship)

But in all honesty I hear nothing that matches "You Me Me Feel Mighty Real" or "Lost In Music" or "Rock With You"

So I stand by my opinion (which is not something I've plucked out of my arse - I've listened to a lot of this stuff, compilations of disco deep cuts, got friends fanatically into this area who over the years have done things like make me a mix of records played at The Saint during its heyday that they've paid $100 for each. I was buying disco and post-disco stuff in the early Eighties). It's empirically grounded.

But to push it a little nearer a thesis rather than a mere opinion....

Let's think about the premises on which disco is based, what would constitute its metric of excellence

Good beat / good groove
Strong vocal performance
Great melody
Musicianship / professionalism
Cool shiny production

Now those happen to be exactly the same premises on which successful pop music is based - a beat that you can dance to, a tune you can sing along to it, a certain conventional idea of vocal power, bright slick production, well played etc

The only difference is that pop would also value a measure of personality, whereas in disco, a certain characterlessness is not considered a deficit. There is an anonymity and a functionality. Most of the people dancing to these underground disco tunes wouldn't necessarily have any idea what the singer or performers looked like, unless they did a PA in a club. There might also be in pop a slightly increased emphasis on having more interesting or unusual lyrics, but then again a lot of pop is lyrically inane. Lyrics are very low priority in disco, which is not to say that there aren't great disco lyrics - the Chic / Sister Sledge obviously, and August Darnell, etc

And yes the disco aesthetic has all the stuff to do with extended versions and long breakdowns - 12 inch orientation.

Nonetheless the greater part of the essence of what makes a disco song appealing and successful on its own terms are remarkably close to the reasons why it might crossover and become a pop hit.

That doesn't work with every kind of underground music, obviously.

The premises on which heavy metal is based don't translate into pop terms. The more poppified a metal tune is, the less heavy and the less metallic it is, according to the genre's own internal metric.

So for instance when a really big heavy metal group like Iron Maiden went in at UK Number 1, by dint of having such a huge fanbase it could bypass the lack of radio play, that tune stuck out like a sore thumb in the charts. Whereas a club track crossing over just sounded like more pop music.

Same with ardkore

Quite a few of the best old skool rave tunes were actually Top 20 hits – Prodigy, Urban Shakedown, SL2, etc.

But the properties and principles that define ardkore are not the same as pop music

There is an area of overlap with pop - a degree of anthemic-ness and a certain fizzy euphoria within hardcore (especially Production House and the happier side of hardcore) that works on pop terms. But there are the druggy sounds and stabs and frenzied breakbeats and sub-bass - core elements of the genre that are not only a bit much for pop, but are not properly audible on a transistor radio or a standard TV with its poor bass response etc.
 
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blissblogger

Well-known member
Incidentally, I don't regard Slint as a post-rock band - they are more like an alternative-rock update of prog or something. Very much a rock band - , nothing 'post' about them, by my definition. Excellent band, for sure.

But to get away from the specific example and the more general point you were making there: it seems like a quite valid way to judge a genre, to listen to its most well-regarded and successful exponent.

The leading artists in the field are literally exemplary, surely?

So, if someone was to listen to Tortoise, and from that concluded that post-rock was shite - it's fairly unlikely they would be swayed by others things within post-rock.

If you listened to Chic or Donna Summer or Michael Jackson circa Off The Wall and somehow insanely concluded disco was shit music, you would be very unlikely to be more impressed by the more underground stuff.

Just as someone who hated Led Zeppelin and Sabbath would be unlikely to more impressed by / taken with Judas Priest or Budgie.
 
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blissblogger

Well-known member
One more observation and then I'll be quiet (apologies to Luka)

Underground disco cultism seems to me quite similar to Northern Soul

The Northern Soul fans liked Motown-type music. But Motown they considered “commercial” – meaning, simply that ordinary kids knew about it because it had been in the charts.

So they formed a whole cult around either the Motown releases that had not been hits (cos they weren’t quite good enough) and then even more around the Motown-wannabes - Michigan area and thereabouts indie labels who all dreamed of following Gordy's footsteps. Droves of labels and droves of artists. All aspiring to be commercial, of course - desperately keen to sell! - but falling short.

So much second-division, solid uptempo soul was made in just a few short years before black music moved on in other directions that these Northern bods could sustain a whole subculture around it. Without ever once playing a hit by the Four Tops or Martha & the Vandellas or the Supremes.

Eventually the logic of this fetishising of "rare soul" and "unknowns" led them into exalting the third-rate and even the overtly substandard.

I find this syndrome fascinating as a cultural phenomenon, but listening to a compilation of Northern Soul feels like death to me. With a handful of exceptions, when I listen to a Northern "classic" I'm always thinking "I'd rather be listening to 'You Keep Me Hanging On" or "Reach Out (I'll Be There)".

That said, I actually do understand this syndrome from the inside, with Sixties garage punk. I was so into it I went pretty deep into the second-rate zone. I just loved that particular energy, the vehemence and aggression of the vocals, the over-fuzzed guitar breaks, so much that I would gobble up these redundant iterations of it.

But taking my fan's hat off and thinking critically, it's fairly clear that the best stuff was by the British groups who inspired the garage punks in the first place (so Yardbirds, Stones, Them, Kinks etc etc) or those one-hit wonders like Count Five with ‘Psychotic Reactions’ or Music Machine with "Talk Talk" (i.e. the things on Nuggets, as opposed to later garage comp series like Pebbles)

Here and there you’ll come across an exceptional tune that you think in a parallel universe this could have been a hit if circumstances had been different.

But the bulk of it is determinedly second-division - and enjoyable on that level if you are that obsessed with the sound.
 
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Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Not going to get involved in an argument about disco cos I only know the obvious tunes but I do have faith in the will/taste of 'the people'.

For example, when I used to listen to rap mixtapes I'd often find that the tunes that I found to be stand-out on those tapes almost always had among the most views on Youtube.

I guess this still works within parameters - so that, for example, I (now) hate Pendulum BUT from that world of cheesy synthy drum n bass they were probably a cut above and "deserved" to be more popular. (And isn't it often the case that the tunes that transcend their scenes and achieve popular success are real standout tunes in some way or other?)

This is also the reason why I dance more consistently at weddings than at nightclubs, cos wedding DJs just rinse out the bangers that everybody knows and loves. My DJ friends tend to disagree with my stance on this but these days I'd rather hear sureshot after sureshot for an hour than a 'peaks and troughs' sort of set. Perhaps that's conservatism (or cowardice) kicking in? But OTOH, there's really comparatively few records that can hang in the pantheon and the pantheon is THE place you want to be, especially when you're drunk.

As others have pointed out, of course, commercial success isn't always a barometer for canonisation and it can take years for something worthy to rise to the top. But when something does, isn't that the ultimate validation?

All of this with the usual 'horses for courses' qualifications implied.
 

luka

Well-known member
me and sufi were talking about this. the best thing about the mp3 era was the end of obscurity as token of moral virtue. the fetishistic quality records gained by dint of rarity and expensiveness. that's been utterly exploded by equality of access and the horizontal landscape.
 

luka

Well-known member
pop is a special case becasue it has the weight of global corporations behind it. same with mass publishing. but if you focus, as blissblog suggests, on specialist scenes, and ask which are the most revered records among that audience, which are the 'aint' hard to tells' and which, in contrast, are the 'iced out medallions' (substitute records of your choice) you do find a kind of wisdom of crowds.
 
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