Reunite Psychedelia and The Avant-Garde.
Also most contemporary therapy as practiced is either CBT (i.e. solution focused, fairly mechanistic) or person-centred (i,e, relational). I've found the Jungian-derived models conspicuous by their absence thus my training so far and looking at the wider therapy landscape, I assume 'cos it's easy to put oneself in quite an ungrounded place with this sort of material. I don't trust the "unconscious as cure all" model, factoring in all that unexpressed hostility, anger, trauma that most people carry. The relational work is quieter but more profound in many ways. Bit like dropping acid vs meditation practice to really reach for an analogy.
Last edited:
CCross post obvs. I don't know, I'll think about it. Too tired to add up 2 + 2 right now to be honest.
Can you?
luka
Well-known member
yes Danny, but I am a poet. I quite understand that for those people who dont not share my mode of experiencing and understanding the world there is an irresistible urge to try and debunk it, to undermine it, to doubt it and to cast aspersions on it. I'm very used to that. But my experience is my experience. It is what gives value to my world and purpose to my life. There are people who understand it and share it and those people have been grateful to me for articulating it and defending it. It is the basis for everything I do and I'm not going to give it up.
What Jung, or CBT has to do with anything I'm afraid is completely beyond me.
What Jung, or CBT has to do with anything I'm afraid is completely beyond me.
luka
Well-known member
I am speaking from my own experience in which the writing of poetry has been transformative. in terms of understanding my own psychic functioning it has been invaluable. I would like others to enjoy the benefits I have had from that encounter. Again, I understand the fear and loathing. We are not allowed to make these kind of claims. And yet, here I am, making these claims. How wicked of me.
luka
Well-known member
the idea that an individual can figure things out for themselves is utterly verboten in the therapy world. i know that. and yet the whole structure is built upon Freud, who analysed himself. and here I am, also self-analysed and self-cured. another virgin birth. another miracle.
you would be very very surprised to discover how much knowledge and understanding is buried in poetry, if you know how to interpret it. it may not be as old and as venerable a tradition as CBT, but it works, i can assure you.
you would be very very surprised to discover how much knowledge and understanding is buried in poetry, if you know how to interpret it. it may not be as old and as venerable a tradition as CBT, but it works, i can assure you.
i answered all of ur questions in the first post of this thread. jung didn't like crazy people. neither did freud or reich but at least they tried to ground it in materialism. jung tried to reform people to suck god's cock instead of letting the little cheeky devils rome free.
you can't have a normie psychedelia. it's not possible. it's just spectacle then. this is why we need to take control of the madhouses.
you can't have a normie psychedelia. it's not possible. it's just spectacle then. this is why we need to take control of the madhouses.
A lot of post-Freudian therapeutic material is about the therapist making themselves redundant. That's the Rogerian position really. Decentring Freudian expertise and the model of therapist as untouched expert.
And I have no dispute re. the curative value of poetry, but I do question the curative value of psychedelics (and psychedelia).
And I have no dispute re. the curative value of poetry, but I do question the curative value of psychedelics (and psychedelia).
psycho-delic rather than psychedelic.
you lot didn't understand how radical acid was. apart from blissblogger. luka is really from mayfare and blissblogger isn't from oxford/heartfordshire but stratford. i have discovered ur secrets. thats why the deep tech thread is so long. now it all makes sense.
this and hardcore was the last flowering of psychedelic avant-gardism. some wiley and terror danjah beats as well. but it was mostly over by 1995. the british started fetishising bacon too much.
you lot didn't understand how radical acid was. apart from blissblogger. luka is really from mayfare and blissblogger isn't from oxford/heartfordshire but stratford. i have discovered ur secrets. thats why the deep tech thread is so long. now it all makes sense.
this and hardcore was the last flowering of psychedelic avant-gardism. some wiley and terror danjah beats as well. but it was mostly over by 1995. the british started fetishising bacon too much.
how can you be cured in a society that does everything to separate all of us from our productive processes? the system is anonymous. as the cyberniticians would say, the inputs have run away, defined an objectified dominating existence over us. we can't determine the outputs. that's the problem. not necessarily the collective unconsciousness but the phantasmagorisation of the concrete, elevating it to an abstraction. this is the key to fascism, after all. reich is a good heuristic but insufficient and not very scientific.
Last edited:
luka
Well-known member
Danny, I think it was important you registered your disapproval. it's been noted. we should always say when we feel uncomfortable.
3rd Form, i don't have any idea what you're on about but you also seem very uncomfortable so why not explain to us why acid was so radical. it was before my time so i missed it. all i remember is kids in primary school wearing white t-shirts with big smiley faces on them
yelling aceeeeeeeid at one another.
3rd Form, i don't have any idea what you're on about but you also seem very uncomfortable so why not explain to us why acid was so radical. it was before my time so i missed it. all i remember is kids in primary school wearing white t-shirts with big smiley faces on them
yelling aceeeeeeeid at one another.im not uncomfortable at all i am just poking holes in therapy.
acid is radical cos it sounds like mercury in audio form. it's like a never ending pean into infinite geometric being. it's all in the modulation of those one or two notes. it is a populist psychedelia of the cosmos. whereas sychedelic rock and goa trance are very parochial.
acid is radical cos it sounds like mercury in audio form. it's like a never ending pean into infinite geometric being. it's all in the modulation of those one or two notes. it is a populist psychedelia of the cosmos. whereas sychedelic rock and goa trance are very parochial.
these should still be up somewhere if not ill see if i still have em.
https://forum.watmm.com/topic/54441-neurp-on-acid/
https://forum.watmm.com/topic/54441-neurp-on-acid/
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
i’m finding it a bit tricky getting a way in on this, can’t say why. disappointed in myself. it’d be a waste to leave it alone though.
some bits and pieces that might help me:
1) we’ve got the idea that large swathes of ‘psychedelia’ is hackneyed at this point; it’s empty signifiers and gesturing. what elements of it are? how did they become that way? why have alex grey and tie-shirts run their course? in contrast, why has william blake not?
2) that speaks to the broader question of what has society for the most part taken on board from previous incarnations of psychedelia; what no longer needs repeating or emphasising?
3) can you articulate what we’re missing at the moment? what should art be putting out there it’s currently not?
4) dream of how it could do that. what would a music or poetry or film whatever be doing when it marries psychedelia with the avant garde?
some bits and pieces that might help me:
1) we’ve got the idea that large swathes of ‘psychedelia’ is hackneyed at this point; it’s empty signifiers and gesturing. what elements of it are? how did they become that way? why have alex grey and tie-shirts run their course? in contrast, why has william blake not?
2) that speaks to the broader question of what has society for the most part taken on board from previous incarnations of psychedelia; what no longer needs repeating or emphasising?
3) can you articulate what we’re missing at the moment? what should art be putting out there it’s currently not?
4) dream of how it could do that. what would a music or poetry or film whatever be doing when it marries psychedelia with the avant garde?
luka
Well-known member
i think, broadly speaking, there are two aspects to creating a psychedelic art of today,
one would be to the represent and invoke the peak experience itself in all its multitudinous aspects,
with all it's thousand faces-
i like Migos but i don't think they encode and transmit a peak DMT experience for instance.
how would you go about making music that does? that captures that same sense of
impossibility? of accessing areas you always assumed happily, would stay forever
inaccessible? that captures an awe and astonishment so great that it threatens to
overwhelm you completely?
the other aspect is an art and an art practice informed by the structure and framework
those experiences provide us with. so on the one hand you have the revelation, the
moment of contact, ingress of divine light and understanding
on the other hand, the religion which unfolds from those multidimensional download
packets. the code of practice and scale of values and mode of perception the revelation
engenders.
one would be to the represent and invoke the peak experience itself in all its multitudinous aspects,
with all it's thousand faces-
i like Migos but i don't think they encode and transmit a peak DMT experience for instance.
how would you go about making music that does? that captures that same sense of
impossibility? of accessing areas you always assumed happily, would stay forever
inaccessible? that captures an awe and astonishment so great that it threatens to
overwhelm you completely?
the other aspect is an art and an art practice informed by the structure and framework
those experiences provide us with. so on the one hand you have the revelation, the
moment of contact, ingress of divine light and understanding
on the other hand, the religion which unfolds from those multidimensional download
packets. the code of practice and scale of values and mode of perception the revelation
engenders.
luka
Well-known member
to answer your specific questions
1) i think what we are talking about here is the trash that litters the mountain.
what we are talking about is visual and auditory phenomena without content or context. these are shells. the most they can signal is "i saw the shifting fractal grid too!" these are surface phenomena.
2) this is a larger question and i think it relates closely the cultural cowardice thread. part of the reason we retreat is we are confronted time and again by the imperfections of human hearts and human acts. to return to psychoanalysis, the discipline gained a huge impetus of energy, interest, insight and ideas from its encounter with psychedelics in the '60s. no one can deny the impact of that, but, and this is where Danny is right, and why he's panicking and is right to panic, it was abused on a massive scale.
thousands of leering Fritz Perls running round. this is why Danny is talking about borders, because it
is borders, properly maintained, which protect us from these kind of abuses. on the other hand, borders
prevent us from getting to where we need to go. all of this is the most exquisite and high-risk tightrope act. you need to keep questioning yourself and you need to keep listening to criticism.
you have to have faith in the experience and the utmost suspicion of yourself.
3) i think my last post covered this.
4) it's what i try and do. that's my job.
1) i think what we are talking about here is the trash that litters the mountain.
what we are talking about is visual and auditory phenomena without content or context. these are shells. the most they can signal is "i saw the shifting fractal grid too!" these are surface phenomena.
2) this is a larger question and i think it relates closely the cultural cowardice thread. part of the reason we retreat is we are confronted time and again by the imperfections of human hearts and human acts. to return to psychoanalysis, the discipline gained a huge impetus of energy, interest, insight and ideas from its encounter with psychedelics in the '60s. no one can deny the impact of that, but, and this is where Danny is right, and why he's panicking and is right to panic, it was abused on a massive scale.
thousands of leering Fritz Perls running round. this is why Danny is talking about borders, because it
is borders, properly maintained, which protect us from these kind of abuses. on the other hand, borders
prevent us from getting to where we need to go. all of this is the most exquisite and high-risk tightrope act. you need to keep questioning yourself and you need to keep listening to criticism.
you have to have faith in the experience and the utmost suspicion of yourself.
3) i think my last post covered this.
4) it's what i try and do. that's my job.