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Thread: Labour Splitters

  1. #16
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    So... what's the the 'right' side of Venezuela then? Supporting a US and fascist led coup?

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    So... what's the the 'right' side of Venezuela then? Supporting a US and fascist led coup?
    Do I detect a whiff of "Oh, so you think..."-ery?

    Maybe refraining from legitimizing a dictator whose security forces are abducting, torturing and murdering anyone suspected of criticising the regime might be a start, I dunno.
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  4. #18
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    Tbh, I don't know a lot about the country and situation. But I can easily accept that Corbs and others on the Left put ideology over evidence and testimony, because I've seen it happen in other spheres. Feel free to try and persuade me I'm wrong.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Do I detect a whiff of "Oh, so you think..."-ery?

    Maybe refraining from legitimizing a dictator whose security forces are abducting, torturing and murdering anyone suspected of criticising the regime might be a start, I dunno.
    maduro was democratically elected? allowed for an opposition leader to become president of the nation assembly? withstand several assassination attempts from the opposition and still allowed for this guaidó guy to roam the country free?

    one very telling example of false information and us propaganda was this so called blockade of us aid over one of venezuala's bridges:



    which turned out to be closed since 2016 from the colombian side https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/venezu...018432?cmp=rss

    there's a good documentary on the 2002 coup attempt from the irish RTÉ that you can see here:


    it's allende/pinochet all over again. if anything, labour/corbyn was late with backing up maduro.

  6. #20
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    Was just looking at the headlines, and thinking I'd be impressed by whoever defends Shamina Begum's right to citizenship. It'd seem like an ideal opportunity for the Independent Group to stake out a defence of liberal principles. Maybe it's a) too early and maybe b) they aren't very liberal at all. Stella Creasy and Diane Abbott seem to be leading the charge instead.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by yyaldrin View Post
    maduro was democratically elected?
    So were the Nazis?

    Winning one election legitimately (and there are many who say he didn't even do that) doesn't mean any subsequent election is necessarily legitimate. His re-election last year is widely regarded as a sham.

    In any case, being elected is hardly an ethical stamp of approval in and of itself. Bolsanaro was elected president of Brazil last year, and seems to be moving in a similar direction to Maduro with regards to dismantling democracy altogether and installing himself as dictator - in fact he's been quite open about it.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    So were the Nazis?

    Winning one election legitimately (and there are many who say he didn't even do that) doesn't mean any subsequent election is necessarily legitimate. His re-election last year is widely regarded as a sham.

    In any case, being elected is hardly an ethical stamp of approval in and of itself. Bolsanaro was elected president of Brazil last year, and seems to be moving in a similar direction to Maduro with regards to dismantling democracy altogether and installing himself as dictator - in fact he's been quite open about it.
    fair enough, tho hitler only won around 30% of the votes i believe. what makes maduro a dictator according to you then? where do you read about abductions, torture and murder carried out by maduro?

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by yyaldrin View Post
    where do you read about abductions, torture and murder carried out by maduro?
    A good friend of mine who is Venezuelan and still has family living there was telling me about it recently. And this stuff is being widely reported:

    https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela#

    Don't fall into the trap of thinking any criticism of a regime opposed by the USA must be "CIA propaganda" or whatever you may have heard.
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  10. #24
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    This whole discussion illustrates pretty well that an "ethical foreign policy" is a logical impossibility if your primary concerns are ideological-geopolitical and not humanitarian. Either side of the political axis is as bad as the other in this respect. The Right thinks the end justifies the means in the noble cause of opposing socialism, Russian imperialism and violent fanatical Islam. The Left thinks the end justifies the means in the noble cause of opposing American imperialism, "The West" in general, and Israel. Neither side seems particularly bothered about opposing the use of mass incarceration, torture, rape and murder as a tool of political oppression per se, regardless of the notional ideology of the state or faction involved.
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  12. #25
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    Political realism, innit. Problem is that most states are somewhere on the scale of committing awful abuses, obvs including the British state. You'd be very limited in the alliances that you could make if you only made alliances from an ethical standpoint (btw this is meant as descriptive and v much not as prescriptive)

    Re Maduro - this thing about taking sides drives me nuts. Both things can be true - (a) that he's committed terrible human rights abuses and has stockpiled national wealth for himself, and (b) the attempts to unseat him are nothing to do with that, but about neocolonialism/power/oil etc.

    Edit: worth mentioning that I had a (brief) Fb argument with Zhao recently about the above (Maduro)
    Last edited by baboon2004; 20-02-2019 at 02:07 PM.

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  14. #26
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    Another thing that drives me nuts - Europeans/Americans talking about how elections were not legitimately won in other countries, when the elections in their own countries are essentially bought with money (not to mention upcoming gerrymandering etc), only in a more 'sophisticated' way. Also why the idea that Brexit was bought with 'dark money', is the least shocking thing ever. Business as usual, only the money sources and the tech have changed a bit.

  15. #27
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    Yes, agreed on both points. It's hard to take any kind of informed view on the matter without falling into a nihilistic blanket cynicism.
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  16. #28

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    Lumet's Serpico is a great metaphor for all of this stuff.

    Every layer of the onion.

    In Brazil many people see Europe and particularly the UK as a Harry Potter infested utopia where everyone is polite and educated and non of the bad stuff that goes on here exists. I keep trying to tell them that it's the same shit in different clothing. A smile, a handshake and a bunch of papers to obfuscate and redirect the attention while the serious business of dismantling society from within goes on a few mm underneath the thin veil of civility. Germany is the worst for this. I feel like at least Brazilian corruption has integrity. Its right there in your face. Much sneakier to dress it up as something dignified imo.

    There's no winning. The maggots are having their final banquets. We can only stand and watch.

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  18. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    ...only in a more 'sophisticated' way...
    Yeah, this is something I've thought for a while now. I mean plenty of countries are openly and blatantly ultra-corrupt, the sort of place where a candidate is so unbelievably popular that he actually gets over 100% of the vote, and where corruption still means shady men in long coats exchanging bulging brown envelopes on park benches, and opposition politicians or government-critical journalists accidentally brutally cutting their own heads off while eating breakfast. And this is business as usual for pretty much the whole world outside of the developed Western nations, Japan and a small handful of other countries.

    But when you consider how political decisions are made in the UK at the highest level, it just makes all that stuff look thoroughly amateur. Consider the likes of Aaron Banks, Cambridge Analytica, funds (which are always "contributions" and never "bribes") funnelled through shell company after shell company, from Guernsey to the Caimans and back again, and all these "think tanks" that supposedly offer "advice" to governments but are actually just special-interest pressure groups in all but name - surely the worst of these is the so-called Taxpayers' Alliance, which if half of what I've read about it is true, would be more accurately called the Tax-Avoiders' Alliance. (In fact I'm not sure of that at all - there may well be much worse examples out there that I, along with 99% of people, am not even aware of.)

    It's notable that the UK is apparently one of the least corrupt countries in the world according to the Corruption Perceptions Index - note that middle word!
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 20-02-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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  19. #30
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    Western Democracies have been designed to be Plutocracies - from the very beginning. American Revolution, French Revolution - both under the umbrella of human rights, or rather - "the rights of man" as they were called, have always been "the rights of the property owning man".
    Last edited by firefinga; 20-02-2019 at 03:04 PM.

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