Oliver Craner
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luka
Well-known member
Here's a Political Poser for you Droid (& anyone else who wants to play) Do you think sadmanbarty, had he have been able to read and form opinions in the early 00s would have supported the Iraq War? Where do you think his political sympathies lie? I sense they lean quite Cranerish.
luka
Well-known member
So one vote for Yes, he would have cheered on the tanks as they rolled through the streets and desert sands, the bombers as they screeched through the skies.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Not half as good on the drums, though.
droid
Well-known member
I can only speak to our interactions here.
I think he likes to theorise and provoke but lacks ideological commitment either way. I don't think he's done the reading or been emotionally or intellectually affected enough by either real life experience or ideas to form deeply held positions. When pushed, like most people he will fallback to relatively sane, compassionate left-ish positions, so argument can be quite effective in persuading him, though the lack of political foundation leads him open to corruption by the darkside.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
bahti's iraqi party
i was 8 when the invasion happened. my parents were staunchly against it and i was taken on the march in london holding up a placard with printed images of dead children reading "this is what war is". on bonfire night we'd make effigies of bush and blair and blow up a model of the white house and all that. when i went shooting a few years later mum likewise drew pictures of bush and blair as targets. my dad's still very keen for blair to be done for war crimes. so throughout my childhood bush and blair were these boogey men.
when i was 12 i discovered chomsky and absolutely devoured it. i remember going to foyles and buying maybe 10 of his books in one trip and just tearing through them. for 18 months or so my whole outlook was solely defined by chomsky. i'd only read writers he recommended. i'd only have opinions that he had, etc. i volunteered with the stop the war coalition for my work experience and socialised with people from it for a few months after that
i saw chomksy mention keynes in an interview and so i started to read that. it was the beginning of the end of my chomsky affair. i'd been exposed to something outside the bubble and it soon didn't hold up to scrutiny. i read more and more widely and the chomsky view of the world became increasingly discredited in my eyes.
i got really obsessed with iraq when isis first emerged. i read tons and tons about it. i knew all the intricacies of the various ayatollah dynasties, who their constituents were, i knew all the political parties, all the major players, all the military theory and strategy, loads of history. at one point i knew iraqi politics inside out. i could follow it as though it was british parliamentary politics.
it was at this point my understanding of the invasion became far more nuanced and, by extension, far less certain.
my uncertainty isn't out of intellectual laziness, it's the opposite. i don't know quite what the comment about my life experience means; the only iraqi's i've known have been kurdish, so they were obviously sympathetic to invasion. in a broader sense i've seen real people suffer and i have tremendous empathy for other people. i wouldn't be comfortable just playing contrarian thought games in the context of people's suffering.
i was 8 when the invasion happened. my parents were staunchly against it and i was taken on the march in london holding up a placard with printed images of dead children reading "this is what war is". on bonfire night we'd make effigies of bush and blair and blow up a model of the white house and all that. when i went shooting a few years later mum likewise drew pictures of bush and blair as targets. my dad's still very keen for blair to be done for war crimes. so throughout my childhood bush and blair were these boogey men.
when i was 12 i discovered chomsky and absolutely devoured it. i remember going to foyles and buying maybe 10 of his books in one trip and just tearing through them. for 18 months or so my whole outlook was solely defined by chomsky. i'd only read writers he recommended. i'd only have opinions that he had, etc. i volunteered with the stop the war coalition for my work experience and socialised with people from it for a few months after that
i saw chomksy mention keynes in an interview and so i started to read that. it was the beginning of the end of my chomsky affair. i'd been exposed to something outside the bubble and it soon didn't hold up to scrutiny. i read more and more widely and the chomsky view of the world became increasingly discredited in my eyes.
i got really obsessed with iraq when isis first emerged. i read tons and tons about it. i knew all the intricacies of the various ayatollah dynasties, who their constituents were, i knew all the political parties, all the major players, all the military theory and strategy, loads of history. at one point i knew iraqi politics inside out. i could follow it as though it was british parliamentary politics.
it was at this point my understanding of the invasion became far more nuanced and, by extension, far less certain.
my uncertainty isn't out of intellectual laziness, it's the opposite. i don't know quite what the comment about my life experience means; the only iraqi's i've known have been kurdish, so they were obviously sympathetic to invasion. in a broader sense i've seen real people suffer and i have tremendous empathy for other people. i wouldn't be comfortable just playing contrarian thought games in the context of people's suffering.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
@sadmanb what do you think about Adam Curtis?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm finding droid's assertion that someone who is *better* informed about a complex issue like this is *more* likely to have a morally absolutist position on it a bit bemusing, to be honest. Barty's explanation that
"it was at this point my understanding of the invasion became far more nuanced and, by extension, far less certain"
intuitively makes more sense to me.
"it was at this point my understanding of the invasion became far more nuanced and, by extension, far less certain"
intuitively makes more sense to me.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
i demand a recount!
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
oi tea this isn't about passive aggressive digs at droid. this is about communicating constructively in an open and safe environment about contentious subject matter with someone (me) with a big ego. have a wank and come back to this thread when you're in a place of reconciliation.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
to be fair i did just look at craner's twitter avatar and he is astoundingly gorgeous.
droid
Well-known member
Glad to have provoked what seems like a rare moment of sincerity, like a snail tentatively uncurling it's eye stalks.
luka
Well-known member
He got all indignant and puffed up his feathers. Do it again.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
it's the dawn of a new era.