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Thread: The Independent Group

  1. #16
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    Good for them I say (Watson et al). I prefer that more managerial stye if it gets elected and gets things done, to populism, monstering your enemies online, and inevitaly dashed expectation of direct democracy.

    And they're not doing exactly what was decided at conference. They're not throwing their weight behind a referendum in good faith - as I'm sure you know, the membership had to really fight to get that prospect on the agenda. They're prevaricating in the hope of electuoral advantage. That actually makes sense to me, I understand why it's being done - I just wish that an articulate and capable Remainer had been in charge of the party for the last few years. The whole national conversation might be different.
    Last edited by DannyL; 23-03-2019 at 02:44 PM.

  2. #17
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    I like the little I know about him. What is weird to watch is the offstage conflcts between him and Corbyn/Milne surface as they contradict each other. He's certainly closer to my ideal template of a Labour party leader but this is only a superfical impression. What about you?

    Angela Rayner would be another canidate but even she was getting monstered for not spitting on the floor when she mentioned Tony Blair a few weeks ago, and I thought she was a key Corbyn ally? The whole culture of abuse to MPs seems totally out of control at the moment, things seem so febrile. This is of coursee another thing that's led to TIG. I think hardcore activists and MPs have fundamentally different goals, intentions and understandings of politics and with Corbyn you see them pitched against each other. Why else would MPs leave what's been their poltical home for years and years - in all probablity finishing their careers - unless the cultuure has become really unpleasant? There's maybe another 100 or so who sympathise inside Labour but they're keeping their heads down for now.

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  4. #18
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    The Labour party collectively needs to get the fuck over Blair. He did some good things and he did some bad things but he's been out of office and out of politics for a long time now. How fucked would it be if the power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland broke down and we returned to the bad old days of the Troubles because the Tory hard right and the Labour hard left are in control of their respective parties and both sides want to piss on everything Blair ever did? It could end up like Trump's unilateral withdrawal from the Iran denuclearization agreement for no better reason than that it was negotiated mainly by Obama.
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  6. #19
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    Well we've really hit the jackpot with a PM who is both as charismatic as a wet sock and utter useless, then. (To say nothing of malignant, reactionary and given to confusing asinine stubbornness with 'strength'.)

    At least with Trump there's a sick sort of entertainment value.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 23-03-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    The Labour party collectively needs to get the fuck over Blair. He did some good things and he did some bad things but he's been out of office and out of politics for a long time now. How fucked would it be if the power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland broke down and we returned to the bad old days of the Troubles because the Tory hard right and the Labour hard left are in control of their respective parties and both sides want to piss on everything Blair ever did? It could end up like Trump's unilateral withdrawal from the Iran denuclearization agreement for no better reason than that it was negotiated mainly by Obama.
    I don't know. I think you can fairly argue that Blair's foreign policy blunders were really heinous, and I understand the hatred when you give that its full weight, as I think we should. On the other, it was a long time ago as you say, that seems to spill out into denoucing everything else that Labour acheived in a really b&w Manchiean way that I can't get on board with, especially when i) the solutions are simplistic - i.e. no foreign policy interventions ever - and would have provably bad effects ii) lots of elements of the domestic legacy were real positives. It's not something I find particularly easy to think about, but that contradctory complexity seems closer to reality. The good guys /bad guys positioning is a lot easier to think with, for sure.
    Last edited by DannyL; 23-03-2019 at 04:47 PM.

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  9. #21
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    BRING BACK THE GREY MEN! would probably be a winning slogan right now

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  11. #22
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    Some friends are talking about exactly the same thing on social media, I just noticed. Lamenting a UK that no longer exists.

  12. #23
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    Hauntology as the ghost of an incredibly boring future which never materialised.

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  14. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    BRING BACK THE GREY MEN! would probably be a winning slogan right now
    John Major is probably the least bad PM we've had in my lifetime. Just think about the implications of that.
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  16. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    I don't know. I think you can fairly argue that Blair's foreign policy blunders were really heinous, and I understand the hatred when you give that its full weight, as I think we should. On the other, it was a long time ago as you say, that seems to spill out into denoucing everything else that Labour acheived in a really b&w Manchiean way that I can't get on board with, especially when i) the solutions are simplistic - i.e. no foreign policy interventions ever - and would have provably bad effects ii) lots of elements of the domestic legacy were real positives. It's not something I find particularly easy to think about, but that contradctory complexity seems closer to reality. The good guys /bad guys positioning is a lot easier to think with, for sure.
    Oh, completely agreed, and I wasn't arguing for him to be exonerated or anything like that - especially seeing as he's never shown a hint of contrition or even acknowledged it as a 'mistake', let alone a crime.

    I hear you as well on the pitfalls of this dualistic worldview. I mentioned this a few weeks ago when I wrote about how an "ethical foreign policy" is an impossibility, because the Right in this country reflexively blinds itself to the manifold awfulnesses of Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states, Israel and the USA, while the Left is just as bad about Russia, Iran, Syria and Venezuela. So many people on all sides think in strategic-ideological terms with no humanitarian or ethical concerns except in so far as they can be used as a stick to beat their opponents with. Witness Tommy Robinson's crocodile tears for the victims of the Asian grooming gangs, or StW's apparent compassion for the poor people of Yemen even while they're defending Glorious Leader Assad.
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  17. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    John Major is probably the least bad PM we've had in my lifetime. Just think about the implications of that.
    fuck.

  18. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pattycakes_ View Post
    fuck.
    I know, right?
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  19. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I know, right?
    major-640x382.jpg

    darn tooting.

  20. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by version View Post
    Major is almost refreshingly boring at this point.
    mw82402.jpg

    come again?

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  22. #30
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    john-m_3597786b.jpg

    ah, Edwina.

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