"yearning for the algorithmic"

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
We need third to come in and outline how, first and foremost, Autechre is dance music.

it's just the electro hip hop beat structure untied from the turntable and mc. like people who are pro and anti-autechre read way, way too much into it. whats more interesting is the amount of texturological control they have over the granular sounds and beats. the variation is more in the texture rather than like venetian snares where he tries to make prog rock jungle or something. Actually in a funny way its exactly how techno would sound for all those saying italo is irrelevant it all come from electro boogie and hip hop. well that's exactly Autechre's route, they hate Italo... so actually the soulquarians had the right idea they just didn't take it to its logical end conclusion..

they don't exactly start composing stumbling turkish rhythms. they are basically blocks of industrialised and mechanised hip hop beats. their music has far more connection to black music than say Aphex. really its the contract they got in with warp which means they have to put out all that music under the AE name. They probably put in more work setting up max/msp patches than they need to when something like a free jazz ensemble type arrangement could make their task quicker. that's demystifying the geniuses mystique around them. of course there is Gescom but you get my point.

And I own nearly all of their discography but i can say all that because i spurn the cul of personality.
 
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jorge

Well-known member
I'd say that for those making music in a DAW this is one of the hardest things to get right.

Polyrhythms are a good way to achieve this effect because you can have 2 simple one bar loops at say 7 beats and 5 beats that when played together will repeat after 35 beats giving a much more complex sequence. The rhythms phase in and out bending but not breaking and eventually resolving.

Steevio's a master of this and has a kind of algorhythmic process using a few 8 step analogue sequencers. Good video of him explaining his process here.


The algorave stuff id find more interesting if it sounded good! It's all a bit random in a random way, I prefer music that has elements of chaos, in the sense of complex systems arising from a set of initial conditions and outside influences, which Id imagine autchres stuff is often based on as well.
 

mvuent

Void Dweller
I'd say that for those making music in a DAW this is one of the hardest things to get right.

Polyrhythms are a good way to achieve this effect because you can have 2 simple one bar loops at say 7 beats and 5 beats that when played together will repeat after 35 beats giving a much more complex sequence. The rhythms phase in and out bending but not breaking and eventually resolving.
completely agreed.

The algorave stuff id find more interesting if it sounded good! It's all a bit random in a random way, I prefer music that has elements of chaos, in the sense of complex systems arising from a set of initial conditions and outside influences, which Id imagine autchres stuff is often based on as well.
I'm not sure quite what to think of it. haven't heard much that actually sounds like it could live up to the 'rave' part yet but the potential is definitely there if the premise of this thread is right. I can see how the lack of relevant outside influences probably is part a big part of it (i.e. they're all nerds).


thanks for the steevio rec btw
 
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mvuent

Void Dweller
the rhythms phase in and out bending but not breaking and eventually resolving.
the idea of 'resolution' in this kind of music is interesting to consider as well. in the case of polyrhythms you can get 'resolution' but for the most part I'd guess it's incompatible with those kinds of dramaturgical concerns. resolution implies that there's one correct / satisfying way for things to align, whereas the 'yearning' dynamic seems to rely on the opposite assumption.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I like the no resolution. those 1 bar loop 5-7 beat polyrhythms (as cool as they are and exactly what techno needs) it seems awfully expensive to invest in a modular to do that. with the algorave stuff it's democratised, it's just its got a steap learning curve. Autechre don't use modular synthesisers.

I was a bit hesitant to post this because footworks gone academic but hey I quite enjoyed this drifting in and out of a nap the other afternoon around 6-7 PM. Not sure how it will sound in headphones, but loud on the speakers it was... interesting. seems like with the algorave stuff it's possible to do the weird pitching with the claps that DJ Roc, DJ Nate et al were doing back in the day. I'm quite excited about that because most drum tracks in dance music don't use tuned percussion and being into middle eastern music and that I realise that half of he crazy 9/8 polyrhythms don't work because you've got a machine pulse at the same pitch, timbre and resonance.

 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
if you listen here, also in that bundle, you can here that it stays at a pretty standard folk dance rhythm. so if we're talking in that sense it does resolve. and yet the rhythm remains to be constantly dynamic through the non-isochronic (I think that's the correct musicological term? bart man correct me) nature of it, you listen for the variations in the pitch of the rhythm tracks. that's why polyphonic middle eastern music never really works. there is not the same approach to counter point over there. not a value judgment that's just how things are.

 

jorge

Well-known member
Yeah youre right about resolution, its just where it goes back to where it started really. this guy explains polyrhythms really nicely in terms of the tension and release of the phasing



Yeah you defo don't need a modular, but to have the control over all the parameters when playing live makes it very interesting, and steevios music is great, not just an intellectual exercise but amazing to dance to. Thers plenty of software environments where this kind of thing can be reproduced and done in different ways. But the principles are similar I'd imagine, if not more complex in max msp, reaktor, etc where the only limit is computer power.

There are some great software sequencers that can give beautiful evolving complex musical sequences, Spiral in reaktors is my fave. Adlais is another, worth looking into if anyone makes tunes.
 

bassbeyondreason

Chtonic Fatigue Syndrome
Very much into rescuing algorave from the nerds. My current thing is using VCV rack (https://vcvrack.com/) to control hardware (via some puredata magic), it's virtual eurorack but has plenty of stuff that doesn't exist in hardware form (e.g. hour/day/month/year-long LFOs). Basically plugging sequencers into sequencers and letting them modulate eachother for hours on end.
 

mvuent

Void Dweller
a lot of interesting ideas raised about what this can look like formally: polyrhythms, changes in phrasing, pitch, resonance, timbre and volume can all achieve this effect (I guess sequencing is covered in all that?) and then also the 'scale' idea.

the actual feelings it opens up, though, are pretty mysterious and hard to articulate. I don't think it's as simple and dry as "variation is mentally stimulating" at the very least--especially in the context of groove.
 

mvuent

Void Dweller
^ interesting way of looking at it: anything goes as long as there's an anchor. sort of raises the question of what the formal "limits" are for this stuff. I'd say it's just perception-based. you can get away with anything as long as it doesn't break the groove (which goes back to the idea of stretching.) there are no "must" conditions in terms of form.

also I don't mean to make this into more of a muso thing than it really is. it can be accomplished (often best) with really simple gestures, just as long it achieves the not-quite-right / funk quality. for example:
in the second half the kick comes in slightly too early once every loop. (can't be bothered to phrase that in more precise terms.) its just one variation repeated over and over, but because you're already used to the regular 4-on-floor pulse from the first half, it always feels a bit 'off' in a good way.
 

muser

Well-known member
I have a theory that humans need chaos, it nourishes are chaotic brains. Thats why nature makes us happy its pure chaos, things that are impossible to model or replicate from the same starting point.. we are aware of the minute subconsciously, complexity fires more neurons and creates a deeper experience. Things can still be minimal and seemingly highly structured but contain large amounts of chaos.
 

mvuent

Void Dweller
anything goes as long as there's an anchor. sort of raises the question of what the formal "limits" are for this stuff. I'd say it's just perception-based. you can get away with anything as long as it doesn't break the groove (which goes back to the idea of stretching.) there are no "must" conditions in terms of form.
I think the question of how / where you hit limits to this effect is pretty interesting, the “balancing act” aspect to it. how far you can take the awkwardness / non-fixedness without losing the groove; getting to a point where it might be interesting in a detached, observational sense but doesn’t have the same ‘stretching’ visceral impact.

do people who are less sensitive to groove hit a perceptual limit sooner than people who are more into dance music? hence Greil Marcus’ point about how “country time” sounds clumsy to the uninitiated, and also how uninitiated audiences who lack the right background might not know what to make of nuum music.

or, from the opposite side of things, is the limit hit when nerds who don’t understand dance music don't recognize that they’re going too far and losing the groove in all the complexity? hence algorave, IDM, etc.

or is it just a matter of what context you're hearing the music in? maybe practically anything with a steady tempo and 'events' can be dance music if you hear it the right way
 
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mvuent

Void Dweller
Things can still be minimal and seemingly highly structured but contain large amounts of chaos.
v interesting theory. would be interested in hearing more about this part in particular. I can see how things that seem chaotic could be more ordered than they appear, but this is a bit more difficult for me to think of.
 
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