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Thread: politics culture wars pt 300: bourgeois fervour vs proletarian indifference

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    Well I was never into football and look what happened to me...

    For most people what it boils down to is "is this person OK or are they a wanker". If all you do is lecture people that they shouldn't eat meat or call people chavs then they will draw their own conclusions.

    But if, for example you are a vegetarian and all that but are also the union rep or someone who helps out with a food bank or something people will be remarkably forgiving. "I mean he is a pain in the arse but he did stand up in that staff meeting and have a go, so fair play really".
    That's pretty much my experience in life too... but it's far too much of a common sense and reasonable position to get too much traction on dissensus.

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  3. #17
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    That's true - and the vegetarian thing is a good 'proof' of that insofar as the way minds are changed is on a personal, experiential level. In other words, your mate becomes a vegetarian, and you still like them, so you start thinking at least there must be something to it.

    This is why the media is so powerful, because it substitutes for personal experiences. If you've never met a socialist, for example, your view of socialism is going to come from whatever media portrayals you encounter (since most people haven't the time or inclination to start reading marx/ist literature).

    Mental energy is finite and we all find ways to conserve it.

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  5. #18
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    Is there any truth in the notion that the English scepticism towards big ideas - while arguably an obstacle to the radical change we need - helped us, for example, avoid going the way of Germany in the 30s?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsey View Post
    Is there any truth in the notion that the English scepticism towards big ideas - while arguably an obstacle to the radical change we need - helped us, for example, avoid going the way of Germany in the 30s?
    Well it's received wisdom that the British are wary of ideology in general, tend not to be easily swayed towards extremism of one sort or another and generally avoid making rash decisions, unlike excitable continentals - or at least it was, until three years ago.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  7. #20
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    Yeah, I think that's certainly the belief. That's why I think (for instance) in Germany they were so shocked by Brexit, they thought that steady-handed British common sense would prevail. Whereas, from where I was sitting, in the UK, it was very clear to me that it could go either way. I reckon a lot of people outside the UK were more shocked for that reason. Now that Brexit has happened it has done a huge amount of damage to the reputation of the UK as a whole and to its people. A lot of people seem to think that the UK populace has recently become more stupid and impetuous, I personally think it's more that we were always idiots and somehow the rest of Europe didn't realise it - basically because of the Beatles and Monty Python.

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsey View Post

    This is why the media is so powerful, because it substitutes for personal experiences. If you've never met a socialist, for example, your view of socialism is going to come from whatever media portrayals you encounter (since most people haven't the time or inclination to start reading marx/ist literature).
    Also true of social media. Very hard to build bridges there although perhaps the parallel there could be "seems to have a decent sense of humour / taste in music so I will put up with the occasional bit of climate change moaning"

  9. #22
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    So what is this thread about exactly?

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Well from your hostility to "Remainers" (go fellate Kier Starmer, etc. etc.) I'd got the impression you weren't indifferent at all, but firmly pro-Brexit.

    If you couldn't give a toss one way or another then that's a different proposition.
    I do give a toss, I just think remain shot themselves in the foot in a huge way and the campaign was, and continues to be, very racist. but that isn't all remainers fault, just as leave being monitised by the far right isn't all leavers fault. If we side with a confederation of bosses or the domestic bosses that's still siding with them whichever way you slice it.

    Not that i think a hard brexit is at all likely, we'll be leaving in name really by the end of it. the negotiations will take 10s of years. this is fact. like the media moaning that we need a full proof solution as soon as possible, ain't gonna happen. it will be a long, drawn out and painful process.

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