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Thread: space for my spitballs on esoterica (yours too)

  1. #16

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    just noticed dictatorship of the proletariat = dust of this planet = dotp
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  2. #17

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    mister tea gets The Sync
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Had quite a cool moment the other day. Readers of Cyclo may remember the curious cursive figure Negarestani calls the "Druj letterature" - a symbol apparently standing for Druj, the "dead mother of abominations" - where should it turn up but at the end of a line of Arabic script on a mediaeval icon of the Virgin and Child in Beirut's orthodox Cathedral of St. George?
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

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  4. #18

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    cyclonopedia still claiming victims 9 years later
    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    "Here’s the trick: do not bother trying to comprehend or understand the text. A desire for that level of control will only hinder your ability to experience it, use it, think it, and become it. To apply an analogy, I do not need to understand or comprehend my car in order for me to experience driving, to use the car to get to the grocery store, to think about the fact that I am sitting motionless while simultaneously moving rapidly through time and space, to become an extension of the car or vice versa. (In this way, Deleuze has really helped me formulate my general approach to all works of literature: I do not care to comprehend them or understand them in any way. I wish instead to experience them and use them and become them.)"
    this approach is something i should keep in mind when setting out on this bigger study. everything is towards feeling the concepts for their practical end: sorcery against the spectacle, the rock to strike the clay feet of empire, theurgy to overcome capital. a forward escape through history.
    mr tea also wrote three essays about it, i'll try to extract the best/most pertinent bits before i just link em
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  5. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  6. #20

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    “But tillage must be older than the inclosed garden; 1) tilling of patches of open alluvial land, 2) enclosed space of gardens, 3) field by means of the plow drawn by animal power. Whether the culture of plants such as the pea, bean, turnip, parsnip, beet, squash and melon, one or more of them, preceded the cultivation of the cereals, we don't know. Some of these have common terms in Latin and Greek, but none of them common terms with Sanskrit.”
    This whole passage calls for more research on my part. The transitions between 1) and 2), and between 2) and 3), have probably been dated, or at least have dates estimated, since Marx's time... What other developments were concomitant? It's interesting that Sanskrit, by Marx's estimation, has no common terms at all for plants with Latin and Greek, when commonalities in general between the three are so abundant. Did the ancestors of Sanskrit speakers domesticate animals before the Latins and Greeks?

    “Horticulture in the Eastern Hemisphere seems to have originated more in the necessities of domestic animals than those of mankind... Through cereals and cultivated plants mankind obtained the first impression of the possibility of an abundance of food. With farinaceous food cannibalism disappears; it survived in war...”
    The first clause seems odd in light of the fact that it's being borne out that over the course of our evolution into Homo sapiens sapiens, our diet was most likely predominantly vegetarian (although chimpanzees and bonobos, our closest evolutionary relatives, are not exclusively vegetarian, and a sort of ritual/war cannibalism has, very recently, been observed among both), and in any instance, we were often not hunters but hunted.
    Anthropologists and evolutionary theorists today even trace much of our religious conceptions to this fact, in particular the practice and motif/mytheme of the sacrifice (and, in consequence, everything elaborated from it). The hypothesis is that one of the group would be left for the predator to allow everyone else to escape, and this is memorialised in the ritual sacrifice of herbivores on which we came to prey in the course of our evolution [ie, in Donna Hart, Man the Hunted (Basic Books, 2005)].
    In any instance, the idea that horticulture was originally for the benefit of domesticated animals is not entirely untenable. It just calls for more research on my part. Food sources before anatomical modernity, and well into it, were no doubt scarce: most of us died. So the ability to cook farinaceous roots and meat was inarguably a massive improvement, the precondition for all later developments. Still take some issue with the 'cannibalism' clauses, though Leacock was writing in the seventies and eighties, before it was observed in chimpanzees and bonobos. But this cannibalism is still never for 'survival': it is always a show of territorial dominance.
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

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  8. #21

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    just noticed "Mind the Ginnungagap" :q i'll have to read more of Tea's blog...
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  9. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  10. #23
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    Cool idea for a thread, O_T. Could you expand on what you mean by 'spitballs'? I take it to mean stream-of-consciousness musings, more or less.

    Funny seeing posts of mine from years back getting exhumed like this - feels like digital archaeology, fittingly. Yeah I was well into 'Cyclo' for a while, certainly. Reza was supposed to have written a sequel by now, in fact I think there was talk of a trilogy, even, but nothing has come of it and I wonder if it's been permanently canned. There's a post on the Urbanomic website about if from more than six years ago, and someone who was asking about it on Reddit recently got this wry reply:

    If the book ever does surface, perhaps it'll include an introduction in which internet denizens search to no avail for a book called Mortiloquist by Reza Negarestani that seems to exist, but apparently doesn't.
    Anyway:

    Quote Originally Posted by other_life View Post
    quietly speculating on the forms of these letters as channels for subtler energies
    Attachment 1030
    their shape suggests momentum. the rush of horses, the rumble of chariots, the vast distances of seafaring
    whereas these are containers of the very same energies
    Attachment 1031
    their square shape almost suggests domesticity/civility. the end letters also remove some of the aforementioned ambiguity. "this is where a phrase ends, one word does not connect into the next"
    Some interestingly ideas here but is the idea of 'domesticity' not contradicted by what you've later written or quoted about the nomadic and pastoral lifestyle of the early Hebrews? It reminded me of this bit in The Power of Myth, which I read over Christmas:

    BILL MOYERS: I wonder what it would have meant to us if somewhere along the way, we had begun the prayer “Our Mother,” instead of “Our Father.” What psychological difference would it have made?

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, it makes a psychological difference in the character of the cultures. You have the basic birth of civilization in the Near East with the great river valleys then as the main source areas, the Nile, the Tigris-Euphrates, and then over in India, the Indus valley and later the Ganges. This is the world of the goddess; all these rivers have goddess names finally.

    Then there come the invasions. These fighting people are herding people. The Semites are herders of goats and sheep, and the Indo-Europeans of cattle. They were formerly the hunters. They translate a hunting mythology into a herding mythology, but it’s animal oriented. And when you have hunters you have killers, and when you have herders, you have killers, because they’re always in movement, nomadic, coming into conflict with other people and they have to conquer the area they move into. This comes into the Near East, and this brings in the warrior gods, like Zeus, like Yahweh.

    BILL MOYERS: The sword and death, instead of fertility.

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Right. Particularly the Hebrews. They really wipe out the goddess. The term for the goddess, the Canaanite goddess, that’s used in the Old Testament, is “the abomination.” And there was a very strong accent against the goddess in the Hebrew, which you do not find in the Indo-European. There you have Zeus marrying the goddess and then the two play together. I think it’s an extreme case that we have in the Bible, and our own Western subjugation of the female is really, I think, a function of biblical thinking.

    BILL MOYERS: Because when you substitute the male for the female, you get a different psychology, a different cultural bias.

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Particularly if you cut the female out and don’t have any — I mean, if the male is on top like this and the female is the subordinate all the way, you have a totally different system from that when the two are facing each other.
    (Shades of the original rift between Adam and Lilith in the last line, there.)

    Having said that, we're talking about a very early phase in the history of the Semitic peoples, probably before 'Hebrews' existed as a people per se and certainly before they adopted writing, and a quick glance at Wikipedia tells me their alphabet only took on the classic 'square' shape after the Babylonian captivity (an influence from cuneiform, maybe?), hundreds of years later.

    I used to be mad into this stuff as a kid - evolution of alphabets, I mean. Still fascinates me.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 31-05-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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  12. #24
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    Something I can never fully get my head around is the fact that writing has been independently invented no more than six times, and possibly as few as three times, in all of human history. And presumably never will be again.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

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  14. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Some interesting ideas here but is the idea of 'domesticity' not contradicted by what you've later written or quoted about the nomadic and pastoral lifestyle of the early Hebrews?
    ...
    Having said that, we're talking about a very early phase in the history of the Semitic peoples, probably before 'Hebrews' existed as people per se and certainly before they adopted writing, and a quick glance at Wikipedia tells me their alphabet only took on the classic 'square' shape after the Babylonian captivity (an influence from cuneiform, maybe?), hundreds of years later.
    yeah the idea is they were nomads when using the first script and domestic when using the latter
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  15. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Something I can never fully get my head around is the fact that writing has been independently invented no more than six times, and possibly as few as three times, in all of human history. And presumably never will be again.
    this is also an area for further research. the whole *thing* of writing possibly throws *strict* post-morgan-via-marx materialist anthropology, ie the evolution of culture is always and everywhere tied directly to the arts of subsistence, leaving no room for The Lightning Flash. especially, as i mentioned, the acceleration of development: earliest symbolic art > systems of symbols > pictorial-syllabic scripts > phonetic writing
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  16. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by other_life View Post
    yeah the idea is they were nomads when using the first script and domestic when using the latter
    and the implication is, of course, how aspects of scripts like the former lend themselves much easier to Sign Magic
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  17. #28

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    elaborated some on symbolic art:
    The use of writing as a creative pursuit, or for historical documentation, presupposes a much longer prehistory: pictorial representation in general. The stone engravings found at Blombos Cave on the Southern Cape coastline of Africa, c. 68,000 BCE, unearthed in 2002 are considered the oldest of any kind of symbolic art. A 2018 study of the Maltravieso cave paintings, discovered in 1951, dated a hand stencil there c. 62,000 BCE with uranium-thorium. The bull at Lubang Jeriji Saleh dates anywhere from c. 50,000 – 40,000 BCE, making it the oldest unearthed depiction of an animal.

    more notes:
    “Domestication of animals – in Eastern Hemisphere – gradually introduced pastoral life, upon the plains of the Euphrates and of India, and the steppes of Asia; on the confines of one or the other of which the domestication of animals [was] first accomplished. They came to regions, so far from the cradle-lands of the human race, [which] were areas they would not have occupied as savages or barbarians in the lower status of barbarism, to whom forest areas were natural homes. After becoming accustomed to pastoral life, it was unfeasible for either of these families to re-enter the forests of Western Asia and Europe with their flocks and herds, without first learning to cultivate some of the cereals, with which to subsist the latter at a distance from the grass plains. [It is] very probable that the cultivation of cereals originated in the needs of domestic animals, and in connection with these western [re-]migrations; and the use of farinaceous food by these tribes was a consequence... [On some endowments of the Western over the Eastern hemisphere:] Maize, from its growth in the hill – which favored direct cultivation, – from its utility both green and ripe, from its abundant yield and nutritive properties, was a richer endowment in aid of human progress than all other cereals put together; hence remarkable progress of American aborigenes without domestic animals [with notable exceptions...]; the Peruvians produced bronze, which stands next to the process of smelting iron ore [pockets of the pre-Columbian Americas were in their 'Bronze Age' and on the verge of an 'Iron Age']”
    So, there's a lot here:
    “They came to regions, so far from the cradle-lands of the human race, [which] were areas they would not have occupied as savages or barbarians in the lower status of barbarism, to whom forest areas were natural homes.”: We remember Adam is not made in Gan Eden (lit. “enclosure of the plain”), but placed there, “to tend and keep it”. Though, queerly, Chavah is “made” in Gan Eden, from the 'side' of Adam, literally “one from his side”. What specifically changed in the life of woman with the development of pastoral life from forest life?
    It is also inferred that the intentional cultivation of plants allowed for these pastoral groups to re-enter the forests. Did they violently displace their relatives in doing so? Refer to Gimbutas, “Old-European” and “Indo-European” distinction, and attendant hypotheses on matrilineal culture of former and patrilineal culture of latter. The argument for animal domestication preceding cereal cultivation is strong (strong enough), but did horticulture of other kinds of plants precede animal domestication (from the practice of plant gathering), or succeed it? How did pre-barbarian man discern edible plants? In times of scarcity (which was most of the time), would they experiment (especially after the production of fire) with plants/tuber/fungi about which they were uncertain, before the domestication of animals?
    A fuller study of Bronze production in the Americas (did the Australasians/Pacific Islanders work bronze, or metal generally?), its preconditions and consequences, is in order. But deciphering the “Western traditions” is a mess with which we are saddled, for now. A fuller study of metalworking societies of sub-Saharan Africa would also be very illuminating...
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  18. #29

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    there's probably typos all over earlier notes as well lol. ah well
    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    It says bless the lads and it means bless the lads.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    i don't know, probably some marxist cultural theory or something
    https://manifestacionesoterica.bandcamp.com/

  19. #30
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    You started this thread when I was in the middle of an epic booze bender as you may have noticed I don't have this head on at the moment when I put it on again I'll help out

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