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Thread: the barbarian ideal

  1. #31
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    marx was not a teleologist. read his thoughts on the russian mir.
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  2. #32
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    OK but he regarded communism as a "stage" that came after feudalism and capitalism, didn't he?
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    maybe. still I don't think communism conforms much to a "barbarian ideal", in the main. it's actually quite congruent to european civilisation, both in self-conception and practice.
    aren't you like tea substituting marx with Burnstein? certainly today any transition to communism worldwide would have to be capitalistic and will have little need for the peasantry (mostly because agricultural production is a very small percentage of production) but i reject some anarchist analyses that stipulate that communism would have not been possible from the russian experience. That in itself is an easy, comforting answer that transmutes the economic determinism to a question of political determinism. But, for innstance, the workers in germany circa 1920-23 did make a colossal mistake by surrendering their own autonomy back to the social democratic party. similarly with Stalin in 1927 urging chen duxiu and an earlier Mao to ally with Chang ki shek. none of these may have aided the proletarian revolution, granted, but unless you want to argue that history is total chaos, you have to at least acknowledge marx's dictum that we make history (we still have agency) but we don't determine the circumstances that lead to our choices. which, i think, solves the pseudo-non problem of free will vs determinism. After all, god is powerless when confronted by the past.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    OK but he regarded communism as a "stage" that came after feudalism and capitalism, didn't he?
    In England, France and Germany. other regions, not so clear.
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  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    aren't you like tea substituting marx with Burnstein?
    I don't think so, no. in what sense? from a theoretical POV, communism arises out of intellectual currents that are characteristic of european civilsation. even forgetting about the theory, communism arises from forces operating within civilisation (not without - like barbarian hordes rolling in off the steppes).

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    marx was not a teleologist.
    he wasn't? how so? most people's conception of marxism is defintely teleological
    Last edited by vimothy; 09-07-2019 at 10:06 PM.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    god is powerless when confronted by the past.
    excellent quote (there should be a thread collecting your best quotes, which includes this, imo). however, god does not necessarily experience time as man.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    excellent quote (there should be a thread collecting your best quotes, which includes this, imo). however, god does not necessarily experience time as man.
    that's assuming that God experiences rather than man imputing that experience onto God.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I don't think so, no. in what sense? from a theoretical POV, communism arises out of intellectual currents that are characteristic of european civilsation. even forgetting about the theory, communism arises from forces operating within civilisation (not without - like barbarian hordes rolling in off the steppes).

    if you are saying that the proletariat is a part of capitalist civilisation, then sure, you have no disagreement from me here, in the same way if you claimed that the working class cannot have an independent existence from capital, and thus is inarguably shaped by the totalising effects of real subsumption, again no disagreement here. working class culture is a bit of an obfuscatory term, yes. If you are saying communism involves bringing virtu and high culture to the proles, then I'd say that was the biggest mistake of the 20th century left.
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  10. #40

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    if god is eternal then god exists outside of time

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    he wasn't? how so? most people's conception of marxism is defintely teleological

    sure but most peoples conception of marxism is a project for aspiring university politicos dissolving in the global solvent of technocratic management where old style donor networks are not required, better to focus on the anti-political dimensions of Marx's theory in the 21st century otherwise you get sucked into trying to justify corbyn's u-turn on socialist grounds, which of course you can't...
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  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    if you are saying that the proletariat is a part of capitalist civilisation, then sure, you have no disagreement from me here
    yes, I'm saying that communism cannot exist outside of civilisation. communism arose from particular currents within (european, capitalistic) civilisation

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    if god is eternal then god exists outside of time
    that's a tautology. the question is could god exist without humans? I'm not saying did humans create God. unless your faith is so predicated on extra-terrestrial beings so highly that your existence is irrelevant to salvation, then that is the thorny dilemma you have to deal with.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    yes, I'm saying that communism cannot exist outside of civilisation. communism arose from particular currents within (european, capitalistic) civilisation
    sure but that's like saying 2+2 = 4.

    the barbarian contention was in opposition to the highest point of Stalinist civilisation, so i think otherlife framing it as an ideal is a bit off, but at the same time I wouldn't say she is wrong.
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  15. #45
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    the sole real content of *civilisation* is the barbarians. civilisation generates a mass that is not of it yet can also not be integrated into it, although representatives will claim to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
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