The tyranny of 130

chava

chava

Well-known member
droid said:
It's not about complexity, its about diversity.
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Problem is a lot of producers doesn't seem to invest much of themselves/are too involved in sceneist conventions. Not saying going all expressionist, but most producers are kinda interchangeable, ehh, 'producer' types. We need more difficult characters. Or people from other backgrounds, visual art, even traditional art. There were people like that in the german techno scene earlier, I believe it did make a difference in approach. I mean there are tens of thousands of techno/house dudes booting up their studio to make a "banger" now; this is not the right approach.

Still it cannot go to far, individualist artistery can end up in noodly IDM crap, so the functionalist, conservative "130 bpm" restrictions is good to keep things in check and impose a conservative, ritualistic aspect, something which is (still) unique for electronic dance music, broadly speaking.
 
chava

chava

Well-known member
thirdform said:
i agree with this, however there is some rhythmically complex techno, like dan curtin, titonton/early morgon geist etc...
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Oh yeah. Early Titonton was impossible to dance to though. But lots of great stuff coming out of the midwest in the 90s. The cologne scene did some pretty great stuff on the rhyhtmic front as well. Or the industrial shuffle of Marko Laine or the unparalleled electro of Like A Tim. Miss all of those acts.


But sometimes an initially boring 4/4 dub techno track can reveal complexities in the bass/delay effects, like BC (of course) which is why you never tire of it. Early techno/rave/hardtrance/squatter acidtek had no rhythm at all however, that was just headbanging (which is all well and fine, but only one part of your body really).
 
pattycakes_

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
chava said:
We need more difficult characters. Or people from other backgrounds, visual art, even traditional art.
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Bingo. Non career minded explorers.

chava said:
Still it cannot go to far, individualist artistery can end up in noodly IDM crap, so the functionalist, conservative "130 bpm" restrictions is good to keep things in check and impose a conservative, ritualistic aspect, something which is (still) unique for electronic dance music, broadly speaking.
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That's also otm. There's only so much we can dance to. There are well worn sweet spots (tempos, grooves, swing percentages) that just work.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
yes i much much prefer cologne to berlin, i find contemporary berlin techno horrendously boring and sadly many UK producers are fetishising it, it's all great production but its music for other producers to listen to. tracks sound amazing in that context and as a nerd i can dig some of it but a whole set of nerd music is just pointless - it's a fine balancing act, i think you want to appeal to the nerds in some respects but also keep the floor moving, which for me berlin does not do so much as the American techno.

As for hardtrance, i always thought some of jack smooth's jungletechno was sort of trancey without explicitly being trance if that makes sense.

 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I can dance to Equinox and Paradox though so I'm probably not the best judge of character of what is danceable or not.
 
J

jorge

Well-known member
i dont think its the tempo or the 4/4 kick thats the problem, 4/4 is just 1/1 and in that way its a basic framework that allows for anything else to be laid ontop, in some ways the neutrality of the metronomic kick is a perfect basis for rhythmic diversity, an anchor for other elements to dance around (not to say it is being used by the vast majority in that way) the 2 step beat is much more limiting imo
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
droid said:
2 step has swing though.
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only at 130 bpm. speed an mj cole track up to 170 and it's basically jazual/housey post-97 dnb.

2step didn't reintroduce jungle's rhythmic ideas back in a garage context, it reintroduced its dynamics. but also those vibey dynamics also equally owed to house.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
most people don't like dancing to a night of jungle. it's sad but it's true. they like it in rationed form. they can easily dance to a night of 2step or house though.

But barty says I'm basically afroturk so I'm the exception.
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
Ive been to maybe hundreds of nights where people danced all night to jungle, and thats in Dublin!
 
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droid

droid

Well-known member
There used ot be a pretty good scene here. From about 96 until Id say 2012 or so. DJ's used to love playing here cos of the crowd reactions. We played at least one gig every year until about 2016. Proper jungle.
 
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jorge

Well-known member
droid said:
2 step has swing though.
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yeah tbh i was more reffering to the concept of a 1 2 beat than the genre. aka the snare/clap on the 2 and 4 which restricts the beat to a 4/4 time

2step garage has swing cos of everything that is happening around the kick and snare and this can just as easily be done with a kick on every beat as well.

im totally for tracks that dont have a kick on every beat and theres loads of possibilities outside of it that should be explored. but to me theres something powerful about it, its elemental and kind of infinite in a way that the kick snare standard dnb 1 bar loop isnt
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
Well yeah, 2 step/1 bar jungle is a hellscape.

I appreciate the infinite timelessness of 4 to the floor, but dont you think it just gets incredibly dull after a while? its like the amen in jungle, too powerful, easily reproduced, and as such, ultimately impotent
 
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jorge

Well-known member
yeah i do know what you mean, but i think its mainly when the kick is the prominent driving feature of a track. its refreshing to hear stuff that doesnt rely on it and i love sets that dip in and out of broken patterns and kicks on the beat.

when i was younger i hated 4 to floor and found it incredibly boring, i remember stewarding at a house/techno festival and everyone cheering as a hi-hat came in after 5 minutes of kick thud, i thought they were very silly, but i had an epiphany around that time and have rarely been bored of it since and i can now be heard rejoicing to the introduction of an offbeat shaker
 
pattycakes_

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
I have to say no because of the myriad ways such a simple formula can be arranged and different sounds that can be used. It's like when you really get into something and realise that things you may have written off as all the same actually have all these subtle nuances. And then there's the interplay with the rest of the elements in the track. It's the nuances of such simple differences that often provide the interest in the beat. For me at least
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
droid said:
There used ot be a pretty good scene here. From about 96 until Id say 2012 or so. DJ's used to love playing here cos of the crowd reactions. We played at least one gig every year until about 2016. Proper jungle.
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yes, after 95 jungle has been bigger in Dublin than London, it's a true story. for whatever weird reason. as luke says when the suns out here it's either garage or skibbididdidem dnb. you will rarely ever hear jungle blasting from peoples cars anymore. someties in dalston in the early 00s but not anymore.
 
pattycakes_

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
jorge said:
when i was younger i hated 4 to floor and found it incredibly boring.... but i had an epiphany around that time and have rarely been bored of it since and i can now be heard rejoicing to the introduction of an offbeat shaker
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Haha same. Was a pure breaks head for years. Hip hop, jungle, whatever. Luckily a mate once took me to see Jeff Mills and not long after I saw Osunlade and all of a sudden I got it.
 
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