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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Oh give obtuseness a rest. The only reason this has come to pass is obviously the farcical Brexit referendum and the illegally won Leave campaigns. I am well aware the UK routinely has PMs that are not selected by a general election.
    So it's actually a fully functioning parliamentary democracy still, then? With an elected government ruled by the majority party as voted for by the electorate?

    And no those are not the reasons, they are also symptoms.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi View Post
    it all feels vaguely reminiscent of the last days of the tories last time round, early 90's style
    internal tory election brought us john major
    politics completely separated off from real life, 0 respect for government after years of thatcherite neglect and cruelty, civil disobedience escalating
    so we're due for rave and only another 7 or so years before new new labour
    next election will feel like the 1992 one, I'm sure - others convinced that the Tories couldn't possibly win another term, surely not.

    "none of these could explain away the fact that the middle class in England had continued to vote Conservative, because in their miserable hearts, they still believed that it was in their interests to do so"

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  4. #243
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    Where were you in 1992 etc etc.

    I don't think these sorts of historical allegories are any use to us I'm afraid.

    The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

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  6. #244
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    Well, it's certainly not the same situation in so many ways, and the potential for utter disaster is much greater. But at least some of the forces in motion are similar, and fairly eternal - human psychology doesn't really change much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Well, it's certainly not the same situation in so many ways, and the potential for utter disaster is much greater. But at least some of the forces in motion are similar, and fairly eternal - human psychology doesn't really change much.
    Human psychology isn't the driver here though. The 90s saw a huge rise in property values and a real feeling of technological innovation. People could say "we're all middle class now" with a certain amount of conviction.

    There was a dynamism to capitalism that just isn't there now. Which is why every cunt with a 100k to rub together is a landlord now.

  8. #246
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    I agree that the capitalist landscape is very different right now, but that doesn't exclude human psychology as a driver as well (and of course the two interact). The emptiness at the heart of capitalism/the current system, and how people react to this by enacting their resentments upon others, remains intact.

  9. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi View Post
    so we're due for rave and only another 7 or so years before new new labour
    I'm struggling to imagine what that would look like. I'm convinced that even in seven years' time, centrist/Blairite Labour will still be toxic to the left because of Iraq and to the right because of perceived fiscal irresponsibility, while left-wing/Corbynite Labour will be toxic because of its failure to prevent a no-deal Brexit and Johnson becoming PM (never mind anti-Semitism and whatever else). So it really would have to be a whole new party, almost.

    Depending on how badly Boris Johnson fucks things up, we could conceivably be looking at the end of both main parties, at least as we know them, in a few years.
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  10. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I'm struggling to imagine what that would look like. I'm convinced that even in seven years' time, centrist/Blairite Labour will still be toxic to the left because of Iraq and to the right because of perceived fiscal irresponsibility, while left-wing/Corbynite Labour will be toxic because of its failure to prevent a no-deal Brexit and Johnson becoming PM (never mind anti-Semitism and whatever else). So it really would have to be a whole new party, almost.

    Depending on how badly Boris Johnson fucks things up, we could conceivably be looking at the end of both main parties, at least as we know them, in a few years.
    And yet, people are already seriously considering voting libdem.

  11. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    And yet, people are already seriously considering voting libdem.
    I know this is a minority opinion, but I think there's a case to be made that they held back some of the Tories' worst tendencies for five years and get more flack than they deserve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I know this is a minority opinion, but I think there's a case to be made that they held back some of the Tories' worst tendencies for five years and get more flack than they deserve.
    I think the point here is that established political parties in a first past the post system tend to weather the storm.

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    Just read that as of May 2019, Conservative membership = 71 per cent male, 97 per cent white and 44 per cent aged over 65.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I know this is a minority opinion, but I think there's a case to be made that they held back some of the Tories' worst tendencies for five years and get more flack than they deserve.
    Check their new leader's voting record. No holding back there, an absolute disgrace. Liberal Tory. Her and Vince Cable, both bedroom tax proponents.

    They are against Brexit and also complete wankers. Both things can be true!
    Last edited by baboon2004; 23-07-2019 at 03:36 PM.

  15. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Check their new leader's voting record. No holding back there, an absolute disgrace. Liberal Tory. Her and Vince Cable, both bedroom tax proponents.

    They are against Brexit and also complete wankers. Both things can be true!
    Ugh, I'm sure you're right - tbh I think I heard of Swinson for the first time today.

    As I've said before, what we're seeing is not so much a grand cosmic battle between good and evil as a struggle for supremacy between two rival gangs of bastards. Same with Trump vs Clinton three years ago, or the American intelligence and security services suddenly seeming (a bit) like 'the good guys' during the Mueller investigation.

    I'm sure a significant (as in, made a difference to the outcome) number of people voted for Brexit for no other reason than to stick the middle finger up at Cameron and Osborne.
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  16. #254
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    Anyway, back to Johnson. So he's saying to the EU that they have to drop the backstop to earn the pleasure of talking to him (us) and they are not going to do that cos they will look like utter wimps. So he's trying to force a no-deal that way I guess. Only parliament can stop him... and it seems like a bit of a grey area.
    It's the same thing that dogged May as I see it, she needed to agree with the EU and with the UK parliament and she was going back and forth from one to the other making promises she couldn't keep cos she didn't have enough of a power base. Is it going to be any different for our new leader? Anyone care to predict what is going to happen?

  17. #255
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    Sure I mentioned this here years ago, but anyway, a reminder - wish I'd had the presence of mind to alert the Eye:

    boris-johnson-agent.jpg
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