Is a counterculture still possible?

luka

Well-known member
What's so important about rave is it doesn't set itself up as counter. It's not in opposition. It merely finds something vastly better. It wins an ecstasy for itself. This is really the key. Without a spiritual accomplishment, without an actual transcendence, you can't get past the eternal tug of war.
 

luka

Well-known member
It's not the have nots seeking to turn the tables. It's not resentiment. So Jesus why shouldi join your gang. I offer you eternal life. O well ok now you're talking.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
Yeah i get that. You could say it's less about going for something with aesthetics that resists cooptation / commodificaiton and more about going for something on a higher plane where it doesn't really matter if it's coopted because it transcends the whole thing.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
the only widespread anti-governmental movement with serious elan these days is climate youths and they're running with a higher sorta meta narrative tied into it.
 

luka

Well-known member
Right. I mean I think form and content are identical and the aesthetics will be there in any case though, by necessity
 

entertainment

Well-known member
which begs the question, is it a counter culture, people are yearning for, or is it a new religion? Something to grant them higher purpose than what life under capitalism offers.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
The movie 'The Comedy' by Roy Alverson explores this thing where a group of hipsters have all but given up on finding an alternative path and are living out this shamelessly nihilistic life fucking about in Williamsburg. A state of depressive hedonia, to quote k-punk.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
"Today that beautiful countercultural idea, endorsed now by everyone from the surviving Beats to shampoo manufacturers, is more the official doctrine of corporate America than it is a program of resistance. What we understand as "dissent" does not subvert, does not challenge, does not even question the cultural faiths of Western business. What David Rieff wrote of the revolutionary pretensions of multiculturalism is equally true of the countercultural idea: "The more one reads in academic multiculturalist journals and in business publications, and the more one contrasts the speeches of CEOs and the speeches of noted multiculturalist academics, the more one is struck by the similarities in the way they view the world." What's happened is not co-optation or appropriation, but a simple and direct confluence of interest.

The problem with cultural dissent in America isn't that it's been co-opted, absorbed, or ripped-off. Of course it's been all of these things. But it has proven so hopelessly susceptible to such assaults for the same reason it has become so harmless in the first place, so toothless even before Mr. Geffen's boys discover it angsting away in some bar in Lawrence, Kansas: It is no longer any different from the official culture it's supposed to be subverting. The basic impulses of the countercultural idea, as descended from the holy Beats, are about as threatening to the new breed of antinomian businessmen as Anthony Robbins, selling success & how to achieve it on a late-night infomercial."

http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/first/f/frank-dissent.html
 

luka

Well-known member
One of the interesting things about the rave movement is that it wasn't absorbed and commodified. It was given the great Honour of the state mobilising against it and criminalising it. That shows just how uniquely potent it was.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I thought of that thread too, but this is also relevant to discussion of subcultures and how they go sour.
 

Leo

Well-known member
I know someone who played in PTV for a few years in the late 80s, he always told me about how Gen was/is a huge fraud.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Seems relevant to this thread: a pretty thoroughgoing take-down of Genesis P'Orridge and TOPY - https://www.popmatters.com/genesis-p-orridge-groupthink-2640631583.html?rebelltitem=16#rebelltitem16

There's a bit of stuff about this on Jon's Twitter. Me and him were both involved bitd. I never met Gen but he sounds like an unpleasant arsehole (didn't realise how much of one until I read Cosey's book) but the article is fairly hysterical. All the stuff about Eden numbers and the like - they were more like goth penpal names than anything else.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I'm really glad I didn't meet him when I was young and more impressionable. What it kinda confirms to me is that how despite whatever ideology people profess, it's the underlying character makeup that's important, and an alternative glamour and outsider stance can just mask a load of aggression and damage that's gonna get taken out on other people.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There's a bit of stuff about this on Jon's Twitter. Me and him were both involved bitd. I never met Gen but he sounds like an unpleasant arsehole (didn't realise how much of one until I read Cosey's book) but the article is fairly hysterical. All the stuff about Eden numbers and the like - they were more like goth penpal names than anything else.

Yeah I know you were involved and thought you might have something to say. Is it possible you were shielded from some of the worst aspects by not being as closely involved as some people were? I mean, did you ever actually live in one of their communes?
 
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