Is a counterculture still possible?
- Thread starter padraig (u.s.)
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Is this part, or all, of why it is so difficult or even impossible to envision something else?
There's also a part in the Republic where he discusses training the guardians of the city, and the very first thing he discusses is the stories they'll be taught as children
Or in other words, how they'll be indoctrinated.
Anyway, I have to think on those other questions.
There's also a part in the Republic where he discusses training the guardians of the city, and the very first thing he discusses is the stories they'll be taught as children
Or in other words, how they'll be indoctrinated.
Anyway, I have to think on those other questions.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I know a little bit about economics
enough to know I don't really know anything, basically
enough to know I don't really know anything, basically
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
it's not really about not understanding
I might not understand abstruse financial vehicles without some explanation but I know how capitalism works, basically. I have investments + stuff.
(it's actually terrifying to me how financially illiterate many people are)
it's more that no one has ever imagined and successfully implemented a different form of socioeconomic organization
which gets back to, what is culture? what is a counterculture? if it exists, is it a desirable thing?
I might not understand abstruse financial vehicles without some explanation but I know how capitalism works, basically. I have investments + stuff.
(it's actually terrifying to me how financially illiterate many people are)
it's more that no one has ever imagined and successfully implemented a different form of socioeconomic organization
which gets back to, what is culture? what is a counterculture? if it exists, is it a desirable thing?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
yeah that's recuperation as mentioned various times upthread
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
Right on, HSBC!
entertainment
Well-known member
Disagree with the statement that punk was nihilist. I think it was the opposite. It had drive and everything that has genuine human drive also has values and meaning. Basically western culture's last desperate reach for something authentic while sliding down, being swallowed up by itself. Culture has been entombed by itself, stifled by too much knowledge of its own history. Punk was an authentic thing because it was emancipatory in that regard, rejecting history.
Now, artists seek originality by some simulation of authenticity by positioning their work in relation to previous works, not by working from their human motive. So we get irony, post-irony, meta-irony, then cynicism. That's nihilism.
People enthusiastically consume art and read literature and listen to music that has no transformative effect on their lives. That's giving up. I have friends that study philosophy and they all live their lives as conventionally and unimaginatively as anyone else.
Now, artists seek originality by some simulation of authenticity by positioning their work in relation to previous works, not by working from their human motive. So we get irony, post-irony, meta-irony, then cynicism. That's nihilism.
People enthusiastically consume art and read literature and listen to music that has no transformative effect on their lives. That's giving up. I have friends that study philosophy and they all live their lives as conventionally and unimaginatively as anyone else.
version
Well-known member
Brad Pitt just did an interview with GQ where he talked about this stuff a little:
www.gq.com
“Leo and I were having this conversation the other day. I hit this point in the late '90s or early 2000s, where I realized I was chasing these interesting [roles], yet I was failing to live as interesting a life as I thought I could.”
“There was just too much emphasis on finding interesting characters. I went, ‘Fuck me, man. Live an interesting life and the rest will take care of itself.’ Like, ‘You go out and you…live an interesting life. Get out and have real experiences.’ And that is what informs the work. Not going to find the interesting work and then trying to make it up. I just became more conscious of how I was living versus what I was living for.”
Brad Pitt on Faith and "Getting F***ing Older"
At 55, the consummate Hollywood star—and cover star for GQ's October 2019 issue—seems to have the Hollywood parts figured out. But inside, there's a whole lot he's still working out.
“There was just too much emphasis on finding interesting characters. I went, ‘Fuck me, man. Live an interesting life and the rest will take care of itself.’ Like, ‘You go out and you…live an interesting life. Get out and have real experiences.’ And that is what informs the work. Not going to find the interesting work and then trying to make it up. I just became more conscious of how I was living versus what I was living for.”
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
it was and it wasn't
that inherent paradoxical tension is probably the main thing that makes it still interesting, still resonate, almost 40+ years after the fact
nihilism qua nihilism has genuine human drive, the drive to nothing, to lay bare the cosmic pointlessness of all human decisions
what you're referring to as essentially de facto nihilism - cannibalism of the past - is rather, as you say, cynicism
punk was cynical, but about the past rather than the future
this gets messy at the level of granular historical detail (there wasn't really a Year Zero break) but it works in terms of symbols, attitude, spectacle (Sex Pistols on Grundy)
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
as far as the idea it wasn't nihilistic, well, the evidence refutes you
see also: 1969 another year with nothing to do, and the entire 2nd verse I Wanna Be Your Dog
and the blatant ripoff Pretty Vacant, or vay-cunt as Lydon puts it
and of course the greatest and most quintessential hardcore anthem of them all
see also: 1969 another year with nothing to do, and the entire 2nd verse I Wanna Be Your Dog
and the blatant ripoff Pretty Vacant, or vay-cunt as Lydon puts it
and of course the greatest and most quintessential hardcore anthem of them all
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
but it is the nihilism that destroys to create
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that is a thing that requires the energy, passion, drive of youth
and unsurprisingly its arc mirrors that of youth, burning impossibly bright and brief until it burns itself right out
hence punk lasted essentially 2 youth generations, basically 76-79 punk, 80-84 hardcore
everything since being the exact thing you describe, positioning work in relation to prior works, subgenres defined by minor stylistic differences
and unsurprisingly its arc mirrors that of youth, burning impossibly bright and brief until it burns itself right out
hence punk lasted essentially 2 youth generations, basically 76-79 punk, 80-84 hardcore
everything since being the exact thing you describe, positioning work in relation to prior works, subgenres defined by minor stylistic differences
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
one could argue that metal is by ethos much closer to de facto nihilism
unrepentant longhairs making unrepentant ugly power chord noise, fuck everything
the edges always get sanded off, but at the beginning point
Blue Cheer ca. Vincebus Eruptum, Hellhammer, Slayer ca. Show No Mercy, early death metal (a young Glen Benton: "death metal is freedom"), etc
unlike punk the trap there is technical proficiency
tho as Lemmy predicted, once the punks learned to play their instruments they more or less did start playing metal, so the snake eats itself (which is fuckin' metal, bro)
unrepentant longhairs making unrepentant ugly power chord noise, fuck everything
the edges always get sanded off, but at the beginning point
Blue Cheer ca. Vincebus Eruptum, Hellhammer, Slayer ca. Show No Mercy, early death metal (a young Glen Benton: "death metal is freedom"), etc
unlike punk the trap there is technical proficiency
tho as Lemmy predicted, once the punks learned to play their instruments they more or less did start playing metal, so the snake eats itself (which is fuckin' metal, bro)
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
there's something the continuing resonance of "punk"
an adjective to affix to literally any concept or noun to imply some kind of edge
which speaks, among other things, to its cooptability
an adjective to affix to literally any concept or noun to imply some kind of edge
which speaks, among other things, to its cooptability
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
whereas metal is inherently and intrinsically, uncool
and thus more inherently resistant to cooptation
to bring it back around to the idea of subculture and counterculture
and thus more inherently resistant to cooptation
to bring it back around to the idea of subculture and counterculture
entertainment
Well-known member
I guess my point is that I see punk the artistic movement as more describing the contemporary condition of nihilism rather than nihilistic in itself. They weren't conveying cynicism and apathy because they thought it was cool. It was more confrontational, sticking the ethos in yr face as inevitable product of the times. Or ultimately, maybe framing cynicism and apathy as cool is a critique of the times as well.
Sorta like how post-modernists are called that for describing the post-modern condition rather than bringing it about or celebrating it. Acknowledging it is the only way to break free from its chains.
Sorta like how post-modernists are called that for describing the post-modern condition rather than bringing it about or celebrating it. Acknowledging it is the only way to break free from its chains.
