chav--explain to a confused expatriate please

john eden

male pale and stale
Links in with this thread:
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=13798&page=6&p=339395#post339395

I remember being told to do something or other in infants school and deciding to just wander off and see what other people were doing. I got called aside by teacher he asked me something like - did I not like the work or something. And I said no. And he looked a bit taken aback and said that I'd probably have some problems later in life then. And I remember thinking well if it's so great why do people have to be forced to do it. Anyway, we were both right as it turns out.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Back on this thread, it is also Chavs' rejection of the protestant work ethic that people hate. There's some grim stuff in there about the sexuality of the lower orders too.
 
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firefinga

Well-known member
That's the best euphemism for "living on the dole" I've ever seen, lol. :crylarf:

In today's western economies becoming unemployed isn't a "privilege" of the lower ranks of society any longer. The constant threat of "becoming redundant" has eaten deeply into the middle class. And together with this ubiquitous job-insecurity the pressure on the actual jobless and poor has intensified. Welfare cuts, (economically idiotic) workfare programmes also have this element of hatred and revenge. Meaning the still-got-a-job middle class believing the on the dole crew has it so easy for not wage-slaving away so they gotta be punished for that. Which also shows how much the "work as fun" BS is propaganda.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
In today's western economies becoming unemployed isn't a "privilege" of the lower ranks of society any longer. The constant threat of "becoming redundant" has eaten deeply into the middle class. And together with this ubiquitous job-insecurity the pressure on the actual jobless and poor has intensified. Welfare cuts, (economically idiotic) workfare programmes also have this element of hatred and revenge. Meaning the still-got-a-job middle class believing the on the dole crew has it so easy for not wage-slaving away so they gotta be punished for that. Which also shows how much the "work as fun" BS is propaganda.

Exactly. And Chavs' refusal to appear downtrodden and know their place REALLY pisses people off in this climate.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
You are in a sense right, though. Resentment of the unemployed is a major source of support for Tory austerity policies among working-class and middle-class voters alike. No-one likes to feel that they're going to work each day so someone else doesn't have to, and it's very difficult to see an effective way to counteract this narrative when there is in fact a core of truth to it, for all the exaggeration and distortion it's then subjected to by the government and the press.
 

firefinga

Well-known member
when there is in fact a core of truth to it, for all the exaggeration and distortion it's then subjected to by the government and the press.

The only core of truth in this debate usually is, that there is a group of people working and a group on the dole and on welfare. I sometimes have to debate fools who are jealous and envious of the welfare recepients and I usually say, if it's so great, come on, what's holding you back? Sell all your stuff, live on your savings for a while and then get yourself to the welfare office and apply for support.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
In today's western economies becoming unemployed isn't a "privilege" of the lower ranks of society any longer. The constant threat of "becoming redundant" has eaten deeply into the middle class. And together with this ubiquitous job-insecurity the pressure on the actual jobless and poor has intensified. Welfare cuts, (economically idiotic) workfare programmes also have this element of hatred and revenge. Meaning the still-got-a-job middle class believing the on the dole crew has it so easy for not wage-slaving away so they gotta be punished for that. Which also shows how much the "work as fun" BS is propaganda.

Where did I ever say it was easy? It's fucking shit, and is shitter now that it ever has been, within living memory at least. I have personal experience of this. My point is exactly that living on the dole is shit, and should not be romanticized as some sort of noble stand against capitalism. For one thing, that makes it sound voluntary, which - most of the time - it isn't.

That aside, everything you've written is true. Although it's not just the middle class who exhibit this resentment. All the strongest anti-'scrounger' talk I've heard has come from people who are themselves working class.
 
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firefinga

Well-known member
romanticizing being on the dole as a noble stand against capitalism?

I have never encountered anybody doing that. In fact, all I ever hear when there's some talk regarding unemployment it's demonization of the actual people being unemployed. I give you that, Tea, this is coming from all sorts of people, working and middle class.

As to who is most responsible for the fetishizing of work, john eden rightly idenitified the Protestant work ethics. It's kinda interesting that Catholicism always saw work as something undesirable and wealth as being something which actually gets you closer to damnation. Calvinism of course changed these views completely.

One also has to say tho that Socialists probably fetishized work even more than the Calvinists.

In Ancient Greek and Rome work was the sign of being UNfree and utterly undesirable - work was being done by slaves or people of the lower social ranks. Today's elites still pay hommage to this way of organising societies.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Do you feel that anyone is doing that here?

Well it sounded like you were getting pretty close with that stuff about rejecting the Protestant work ethic.

To be clear, the entire way we relate to work is severely fucked up and I am by no means defending the status quo. The Tories have successfully made 'benefits' a dirty word to most of the country and the left needs a convincing counter-narrative to stand some chance of stopping the wholesale gutting of the welfare state. What form that could take, I don't know.

Firefinga - I know I replied to your post but my comments were mainly aimed at JE, sorry for confusion.
 

trilliam

Well-known member
'Chav' is only a synonym for 'poor' if you decide that it is. It's got much more to do with an attitude and a type of behaviour, in my view. When I was at high school they were called townies rather than chavs and plenty of them came from financially comfortable families (and then again, plenty of them didn't).

No no and no

Where is Rudewhy to shit all over this post

Chavs are poor white people point blank. it's not some affectation you can pull off with a trakky and some workouts
 

trilliam

Well-known member
Chavs are still about but fortunately for whites everywhere we're back to pretending only black people are working class/live in estates

Yes I know people from those brexit ends are even poorer then their London equivalents but no one cares.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
No no and no

Where is Rudewhy to shit all over this post

Chavs are poor white people point blank. it's not some affectation you can pull off with a trakky and some workouts

Can we take it as read that baboon is one of the more notably left-wing regular contributors here? At any rate a bit more left-wing than that awful reactionary old Mr. Tea? OK, good. He said:

I grew up in north Kent, and I'm pretty sure that 'chav' has been used on and off for a long time there. To me (and being blissfully unaware of the etymology), it was always used to designate aggressive and unpleasant people who used ignorance as a badge of honour, and I would never have applied the word to anyone who didn't fit that description.

Most people, if asked to define the word, would probably say something more or less along those lines. So to say that it's simply synonymous with being poor, or being poor and white, is to equate being poor with being aggressive, unpleasant and ignorant.

And if that's supposed to be the progressive stance to take on the word 'chav', then I really don't know what to say.
 

trilliam

Well-known member
Can we take it as read that baboon is one of the more notably left-wing regular contributors here? At any rate a bit more left-wing than that awful reactionary old Mr. Tea? OK, good. He said:



Most people, if asked to define the word, would probably say something more or less along those lines. So to say that it's simply synonymous with being poor, or being poor and white, is to equate being poor with being aggressive, unpleasant and ignorant.

And if that's supposed to be the progressive stance to take on the word 'chav', then I really don't know what to say.

the description i gave was the media line at the time, and definitely what id imagine posh middle class people to think of chavs

that description by mr tea sounds pretty airy fairy/not trying to say too much/liberal/out of touch, and tbh under the guise of appearing "humane" is exactly the kind of answer id expect a posh middle class person to give

where's "north kent" ?

/

what is a "progressive" stance on chavs, do we need one?, is that actually a thing?

chav was a word used to mock/demonise white working classes aka poor white people, we've since decided they're exempt from this kind of treatment unlike other minorities who inhabit the same space in society as them so the word fell out of favour, whats this revisionism about

you're seeking a progressive stance on chavs stinks of white privilege to me bro
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
the description i gave was the media line at the time, and definitely what id imagine posh middle class people to think of chavs

Posh middle class people live in attractive Victorian houses on pleasant, clean streets where antisocial behaviour is not a common problem. They may be the sort who read Katie Hopkins books and who think "All working class people are 'chavs" (i.e. unemployed hooligans), or they may be the sort who read Owen Jones books and think "'Chav' is just a nasty snobbish term for working-class people" (i.e. the stance you and others here are taking). In either case, working-class people are reduced to an Other, an undifferentiated mass with a character determined entirely by their socioeconomic status.

The glaring irony here is that the people who are actually affected by the ASB, low-level crime and general aggro from those who, for the purposes of this thread, may be called 'chavs', are themselves mostly working class. They live on the estates and streets where this goes on because they can't afford to live anywhere else. I left London a few years but I've spent many years living in areas just like that, and I know many people who still do. Your assumption that you're in a position to lecture me about 'privilege' and being 'out of touch', when I'm talking from personal lived experience and not something I've read in the Guardian and taken for gospel truth, is fucking hilarious. "Bro."

where's "north kent" ?

Oh I dunno really, though I would take a wild guess that it's the northern part of the English county of Kent. :rolleyes:
 
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