We Are All Willing On The Catastrophe

version

version

Well-known member
The Subliminal Man is cool but feels a bit like an outline for a novel rather than a short story in its own right. I have to wonder whether Carpenter read it prior to They Live as there's some serious overlap there what with the disguised billboards and critique of consumerism.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
He is fascinated by the ramifications of societal breakdown and the Id – the Freudian unconscious – expressing itself through sex and violence and chaos.

Why I mentioned the death drive upthread - before Luka the thread monitor tried to shut down that discussion - is because if Ballard is labouring away at that idea (and you can make a good argument that he is) what if it's fundamentally wrong? Are Freudian ideas about the unconscious correct? They are very old after all. For example is tapping into "sex, violence and chaos" the only outcome of working with trauma? Most actual contemporary psychotherapeutic work with the traumatised would suggest the opposite - that you go beyond the PTSD style flashbacks and repetition and become increasingly functional and healthy. There's a fair amount of emerging work on this sort of thing (see Bessel van de Kolk, Babette Rothschild et al). Can't help but wonder what Ballard might've written if he'd subjected himself to this sort of process. Perhaps his novels wouldn't have been as great.
 
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droid

droid

Well-known member
I think the death drive is actually quite a useful concept. We see echoes of it in miserablist philosophy and literature both before and after Freud. In fact Luka may have had a stronger argument if he'd tapped into Tolstoy rather than Ballard.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
Absolutely it’s a useful concept – it speaks to something in us. But I do I find it very interesting to consider why it’s got such take up when it’s largely seen as irrelevant these days in the field of psychotherapy and counselling. You’re more likely to encounter it on a literature course.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
DannyL said:
He is fascinated by the ramifications of societal breakdown and the Id – the Freudian unconscious – expressing itself through sex and violence and chaos.

Why I mentioned the death drive upthread - before Luka the thread monitor tried to shut down that discussion - is because if Ballard is labouring away at that idea (and you can make a good argument that he is) what if it's fundamentally wrong? Are Freudian ideas about the unconscious correct? They are very old after all. For example is tapping into "sex, violence and chaos" the only outcome of working with trauma? Most actual contemporary psychotherapeutic work with the traumatised would suggest the opposite - that you go beyond the PTSD style flashbacks and repetition and become increasingly functional and healthy. There's a fair amount of emerging work on this sort of thing (see Bessel van de Kolk, Babette Rothschild et al). Can't help but wonder what Ballard might've written if he'd subjected himself to this sort of process. Perhaps his novels wouldn't have been as great.
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Luka the thread monitor noted you barged into the conversation without reading the preceding posts and thus failed to realise you were rehashing points which had already been made and summarily refuted. It was tedious and aggravating.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
droid said:
No it doesn't. This aspect is being explored precisely because of your titanic leap that Ballard's diagnosis is somehow universal, and not, as is argued here a symptom of an authorial obsession wrought by significant childhood trauma.

But that's an interesting angle you're taking now. We've gone from Ballard having a definitive and very serious insight into the secret urges and group consciousness of humanity, to him exploring ideas with "nuance, irony, humour ambiguity, play."

You cant have it both ways.
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I'm talking about the relationship of protagonist to author! I'm suggesting it is more nuanced than you are allowing for, as indeed is any self presentation.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
Droid and Danny I would suggest you go back and read the thread from the beginning, particularly
vimothys contributions. You've misunderstood the thrust of the thing.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
luka said:
Luka the thread monitor noted you barged into the conversation without reading the preceding posts and thus failed to realise you were rehashing points which had already been made and summarily refuted. It was tedious and aggravating.
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I did read the thread but choose to take the conversation in a different direction - you might want to note btw that simply saying "no that's not true" is a pretty weak refutation. Please try a bit harder.
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
I think that's even more cut and dried. Other than the wind from nowhere, every one of his books features a virtually identical solitary protagonist, a male, middle aged professional. I struggle to think of a single story he wrote with a female lead, in fact the only thing I can think of right now that deviates from the formula is 'the sound sweep' which features a mute boy.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
DannyL said:
I did read the thread but choose to take the conversation in a different direction - you might want to note btw that simply saying "no that's not true" is a pretty weak refutation. Please try a bit harder.
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Vimothy dealt with it.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
droid said:
I think that's even more cut and dried. Other than the wind from nowhere, every one of his books features a virtually identical solitary protagonist, a male, middle aged professional. I struggle to think of a single story he wrote with a female lead, in fact the only thing I can think of right now that deviates from the formula is 'the sound sweep' which features a mute boy.
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Oh my god this is so dumb. This thread is cancelled.
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
We've gone from Ballard having a definitive and very serious insight into the secret urges and group consciousness of humanity, to him exploring ideas with "nuance, irony, humour ambiguity, play."
You cant have it both ways.
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Why not? Can't someone use those things to reveal his understanding of humanity or lead the reader to it?
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
Of course you can, but Luka's original thesis precludes ambiguity, doubt, nuance and playfulness. Its a definitive assertion.
 
version

version

Well-known member
DannyL said:
Why I mentioned the death drive upthread - before Luka the thread monitor tried to shut down that discussion - is because if Ballard is labouring away at that idea (and you can make a good argument that he is) what if it's fundamentally wrong? Are Freudian ideas about the unconscious correct?
Click to expand...

What would you suggest in place of the Freudian death drive?
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
ballard is illustrative of a point isn't he. I don't see why it matters that he's problematic, projecting, professional or whatever, but if it does, and if he is, it doesn't refute the point it just means its a bad example
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
Sure, I alluded to as much above, but where are the other convincing examples of an unconscious desire for civilisational collapse or catastrophe?
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
The thesis isn't hard to understand, but where's the evidence?

There is an interesting conversation to be had around the psychology of climate change, specifically in the West, where our lifestyles make us unavoidably and inextricably complicit in the process and our governments have been so deeply culpable. So the feelings of helplessness, fear and despair are also wrapped in guilt around our own roles - but I would argue that doesn't translate into a desire for catastrophe, except perhaps in a particularly debased and cynical cohort, and even then there is (as has already been discussed here) a confusion with the morbid desire for spectacle.

But then there's the rest of the world, the majority. The indigenous peoples who managed to live in relative harmony with nature for millenia, various cultures and peoples who aren't necessarily driven by such a rapacious desire to dominate and exploit. We cant discuss group consciousness and simply ignore most of humanity.
 
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