We Are All Willing On The Catastrophe

vimothy

vimothy

yurp
They're two separate things arent they? you can discuss the possibility of a subconscious drive towards catastrophe whilst maintaining a commitment to fighting climate change
 
V

version

Well-known member
vimothy said:
They're two separate things arent they? you can discuss the possibility of a subconscious drive towards catastrophe whilst maintaining a commitment to fighting climate change
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I think so, but I can see droid's point that the former can undermine the latter. It's difficult to do something whilst arguing that ultimately there's little point in doing it.
 
V

version

Well-known member
It's an argument that can facilitate doing nothing though. If you're hoovering a room whilst discussing how someone will come in about an hour later and make a mess again then you could well get to the point where you just decide to cut your losses and pack it in.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
youre assuming that if humans secretly desire catastrophe on some level then catastrophic climate change is caused by that desire
 
sufi

sufi

lala
version said:
The mass shooters in the US often seem to be seeking catastrophe, both for themselves and others.
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droid said:
But also more likely that they can be prevented. We imagine an asteroid impact so we monitor the skies to try and mitigate. We imagine the pandemic and create vaccines and medicines. We imagine the flood and build arks and sea walls. We imagine the inferno so we install smoke alarms and do fire drills.

You cannot avoid a catastrophe if you cannot conceive of it.
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I worry about the effect of all the zombie apocalypse ideation, what's that prepping us for?
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
and even then, even if it is, it's not an argument for doing nothing

when you hoover a room, you can be sure that at some point someone definitely will come in and make a mess of it again. keeping a room clean is an ongoing process it's not something you do once
 
V

version

Well-known member
vimothy said:
youre assuming that if humans secretly desire catastrophe on some level then catastrophic climate change is caused by that desire
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I guess, but I'm also arguing that if you repeatedly discuss the hopelessness or inevitability of a situation then there's a good chance people will start to treat it as such.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
sufi said:
Sort of species level self-sabotage
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I'm not denying the possibility -- I think humans ultimately are self-sabotaging -- just the necessary logical link between a kind of arguable nihilistic desire for destruction and big society-wide outcomes that are subject to all sorts of other causes
 
V

version

Well-known member
vimothy said:
and even then, even if it is, it's not an argument for doing nothing
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I think it can be when we're already dealing with stuff like people believing that climate change is real but being unwilling to do anything personally to deal with it. It can easily work as ammo against going through the discomfort of altering your lifestyle when you're already reluctant to.

vimothy said:
when you hoover a room, you can be sure that at some point someone definitely will come in and make a mess of it again. keeping a room clean is an ongoing process it's not something you do once
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Surely the same applies to the climate? We're probably going to keep coming up with technologies and behaviours which we later realise are damaging and have to move away from and rethink.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
there's an interesting book (which I haven't read but I've seen referenced in a few places) called Topsoil and Civilisation. it argues that destruction of topsoil is a constant and limiting factor in the history of human civilisation. at some point, a civilisation exhausts its available arable land and dies. something like a death drive isn't necessary to generate this kind of outcome, simple lack of knowledge, or inability to act on that knowledge at scale, will suffice.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
suppose such an outcome is inevitable. it's still the case that you want to put it off as much as possible. it's not an argument for doing nothing.
 
V

version

Well-known member
vimothy said:
suppose such an outcome is inevitable. it's still the case that you want to put it off as much as possible. it's not an argument for doing nothing.
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Totally, but I think if you were to tell a bunch of people to do something difficult and uncomfortable to prevent something which was going to happen anyway then one of their first questions would be to ask why they should bother.
 
V

version

Well-known member
vimothy said:
there's an interesting book (which I haven't read but I've seen referenced in a few places) called Topsoil and Civilisation. it argues that destruction of topsoil is a constant and limiting factor in the history of human civilisation. at some point, a civilisation exhausts its available arable land and dies. something like a death drive isn't necessary to generate this kind of outcome, simple lack of knowledge, or inability to act on that knowledge at scale, will suffice.
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Personally I don't believe that climate change is a product of the death drive but I do believe that the morbid curiosity at how bad it could get, "doomerism" and so on can be. The death drive may be what's preventing some people from wanting to do something about it rather than what created the situation in the first place.
 
sufi

sufi

lala
It's becoming like a hobby.
Soon there will be merch,
thence forward apocalypse will be monetised and inevitable
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
version said:
Totally, but I think if you were to tell a bunch of people to do something difficult and uncomfortable to prevent something which was going to happen anyway then one of their first questions would be to ask why they should bother.
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you're going to die, why try to put off the inevitable
 
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