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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    This is the key point, he's using his anti-racist activity in other areas as currency.

    This is obviously morally bankrupt, and it is the way that wider society tends to work. The thing about Corbyn is that he's unfortunately not very different at all from all the other politicians. He's just operating in a different formation, as it were.
    That's far too calculating and cynical. Corbyn isn't cynical. I think it's more that he's dedicated his entire life to anti-racist activity, so accusations of anti-semitism have been met with utter incredulity on his part. And he can dismiss them even more easily when they come as part of vicious political attacks which he is well practised in ignoring. All of that has left him wrong-footed on this issue and floundering about.

  2. #32
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    I wouldn't use the word cynicism to describe it, rather a certain point at which he stops thinking about racism because he's convinced it could never apply to him (can call this arrogance, but not attached to that word). And that's a huge problem, as well as a misunderstanding of what racism is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig (u.s.) View Post
    it's some real sad self-divide and conquer business

    what's saddest to me is that all those first two stereotypes - passing, and affluence - have long, ugly histories behind them

    (some of that history was perpetrated by Jews, no doubt - if never on a systemic level, until possibly - depending how one views it - Israel)

    and they're the same goddamn stereotypes that existed 100 years ago
    Perhaps the reason the affluence stereotype persists is that anti-Semitism fulfils a function for certain people to discharge hatreds 'upwards' (by alleging that there is a group of people who exert power over society), whereas other racisms generally fulfil a function for people to discharge hatreds 'downwards'? And there seems to be something in human beings that cleaves to both of these ways of hating, and then simply ignores the actual diversity within the groups that are hated, because it runs counter to these established, almost archetypal, hierarchical narratives.

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  5. #34
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    https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/...oll-2018-intl/

    this is clear on how widespread anti-Semitism is within societies, even if some of the questions asked aren't necessarily the best/clearest.

    As Padraig said: "A third of Europeans said commemorating the Holocaust distracts from other atrocities today, with higher than average numbers of Germans, Austrians, Poles and Hungarians stating that."

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    Did anyone follow the stuff with Ilhan Omar in the US, Bernie saying the US should stop aid to Israel etc? I only saw bits and pieces and couldn't quite work out what the situation was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    I wouldn't use the word cynicism to describe it, rather a certain point at which he stops thinking about racism because he's convinced it could never apply to him (can call this arrogance, but not attached to that word). And that's a huge problem, as well as a misunderstanding of what racism is.
    "complacency" is perhaps the word

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    I think it's a good word. It's this idea that if one does enough work in a particular field, one can stop thinking about it. But you can never stop thinking, especially about how different people's experiences are.

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  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by version View Post
    I think the hyperpartisan nature of politics these days exacerbates the situation as people on the left can surely see that when Corbyn does something and they attack him for it they're helping the right whereas when Boris or whoever says something the right don't give a shit and back him regardless.
    Ultimately, this is part and parcel of the inherent disadvantage that progressive parties have compared to conservative ones. Yes, arguably Labour is being held to a higher standard over antisemitism than the Tory party is over Islamophobia, but in a sense, that is right and proper. Labour are supposed to be the good guys on this sort of thing.

    I mean obviously the Telegraph would jizz in its collective pants if it found out that Caroline Lucas owned a huge gas-guzzling 4x4, even if Boris Johnson owned one too. But they wouldn't actually be wrong in pointing out that this would constitute a far greater hypocrisy on the part of a Green Party leader than it would in the leader of a party that is in no way associated with the green movement and in fact has close ties to the fossil fuel industry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Perhaps the reason the affluence stereotype persists is that anti-Semitism fulfils a function for certain people to discharge hatreds 'upwards' (by alleging that there is a group of people who exert power over society), whereas other racisms generally fulfil a function for people to discharge hatreds 'downwards'? And there seems to be something in human beings that cleaves to both of these ways of hating
    there is probably something in that

    but I would be curious to hear other examples of groups - religions, ethnicities - besides Jews, that have been the target of similar upward bigotry as a people, not as individuals

    because I can think of similar cases of people hating insular outside groups - ethnic Chinese in SE Asia, Sikhs in India outside Punjab, etc - but no one is accusing them of running the world

    that seems unique to Jews, and I would assume it's tied up with European colonialism, and the traditional Jewish role as bankers, financiers, merchants

    there are very specific historical reasons for that have to do with medieval European society - the class structure of feudalism, Church ban on usury, etc - rather than anything inherent to Judaism

    it contains many bitter ironies - for one, that unsurprisingly only a very tiny minority Jews were fabulously wealthy bankers

    and another, that outside that elite level, Jewish commerce was largely displaced by the Christian bourgeois once modern capitalism got going/usury restrictions were done away with

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    no one accuses, say, the Swiss of secretly running world despite their proliferation as bankers

    Jews are perceived as both insular/clannish (not untrue, depending on the Jews) and as rootless cosmopolitan outsiders

    it's the combination of punching upward, and vulnerability

    the perfect foil on which to blame all your problems

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    It doesn't seem to have happened to anywhere the same degree as with the Jews but there are or were a fair few Jesuit conspiracies.

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    that's a good example

    the key difference there being that Jesuits aren't an ethnicity or polity to themselves. there's no such thing as having Jesuit blood.
    Last edited by padraig (u.s.); 01-11-2019 at 08:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by version View Post
    Did anyone follow the stuff with Ilhan Omar in the US
    she's definitely in that space where she's said some things that are uncomfortable

    the things she was talking about - the undue influence of AIPAC - aren't necessarily wrong, it's more how she said them

    unlike Corbyn she almost instantly apologized and made a real effort to distinguish between valid critique and anti-Semitic tropes. she partially pled ignorance, which I can believe.

    she's more like a person I might not agree with all the time, but would be willing to hear out on any issue because she seems to have consistent principles, including against bigotry of all kinds.

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    Corbyn often seems to dig the hole deeper when he attempts an apology. He can be a bit slippery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig (u.s.) View Post
    no one accuses, say, the Swiss of secretly running world despite their proliferation as bankers

    Jews are perceived as both insular/clannish (not untrue, depending on the Jews) and as rootless cosmopolitan outsiders

    it's the combination of punching upward, and vulnerability

    the perfect foil on which to blame all your problems
    Reminds me of the line in Eco's essay on "Ur-Fascism" about how fascism demands an enemy that is "simultaneously too strong and too weak".
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