David Mitchell

jenks

thread death
i certainly don't think the subject matter is beneath him- its his attempt at a straight forward narrative. not as good as cloud atlas though.

I suppose what i meant was that he doesn't add to the genre of 'growing up in the Eighties' - in some ways it was very evocative for me, but at the same time i felt it was over heavy on all that ' I love 1982' tv cultural reference.

I think it's interesting that he alludes to Le Grand Meulnes cos i think that is obviously a model for this but he doesn't manage to pull it off.

I'm not against 'straight forward' i just feel that Ghostwritten and Cloud Atlas are just much more impressive achievements and this seems to be a step back from that mixture of form and content which put him at the forefront of British writers
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
I'm not against 'straight forward' i just feel that Ghostwritten and Cloud Atlas are just much more impressive achievements and this seems to be a step back from that mixture of form and content which put him at the forefront of British writers

i think they are better intellectual achievements, but in terms of straightforward narrative and bringing a time and place to life, BSG works really well. Mitchell has said he feels its by far his best book.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
"I think "Cloud Atlas" is wildly overrated even though i do think Mitchell is a very good writer. I didn't think the threads connecting the stories were strong enough
Actually, I'd have been bothered if there was much more connection. Part of what made me like the book was that while it obviously has a 'clever' form, it never lets the form drive the book (unlike If On A Winter's Night, IMO), and although there are links and similarities between the stories they're still loose enough for the stories to feel organic in themselves.
and i just felt that i'd read this whole metafiction thing before. I know we know fiction is fictional (!) but it becomes problematic when a character you have invested time and interest in (Timothy Cavendish) turns out to be the main player in a movie and that the other section, concerning Luisa Rey, is not only a character in a crime novel but a fictional character in a crime novel which plays a bit part in a fictional movie about a fictional book publisher. After a while the whole thing - rather than building some significance from this accumulation of fictions - just crumbles away.
I didn't think that the metafictionality was the main 'thing' of the book, so having seen it done before didn't bother me much. He used it quite smartly, though, and I quite like the way it makes you realise that you're still willing to invest time and interest in a character even though you know they're not only fictional but metafictional...

I was also quite impressed by the way that the final chapter manages to put a different spin on events that occur chronologically later. OTOH I wasn't impressed by the birthmark thing either.
 

John Doe

Well-known member
For me, I've always enjoyed the tricks and liveliness of Mitchell's writing but I can see that some people (John Doe?) see this as overly flashy and tricksy.

Thanks for the namecheck IR but I think you've got me confused with someone else. I actually love what you term 'tricks and liviliness' it's just that I don't think Mitchell does it particularly well (although as I've said in past threads I only know Ghostwritten). It's not that Mitchell is 'tricksy' it's just that he's so crass and callow and inept in his deployment of such relfexive tropes that it's embarrasing. In Ghostwritten he was so eager to evoke his great influences (Borges, Calvino etc) that he just made himself look like an idiot - depsite his puppyish best efforts he just isn't in their league. And, to return to Melmouth's earlier point, I find it incredibly depressing that a second-rate student like MItchell gets celebrated by publishers, critics etc for the very thing he fails to be - ie a mature, intelligent writer at ease with/engaged in testing various postmodern strategies, who mines the novel form in order to relect on the greater issues of narrative, truth, representation etc that form and motivate late capitalist society. Mitchell's sorta like PostModern Lite - a bit of mis-an-abyme, a bit of diegesis, a little touch of unreliability, a few gestures towards the genealogical, the post-structural etc but, as Melmouth so perceptively puts it, actually he's just a nineteenth century novelist in a vaguely 'modern' garb. The bourgeois subject is absolutely central to his project (such as it is). Why? Because he's incapable of moving past that horizon technically, imaginatively and artistically. And also, crucially, at the end of the day the publishing houses, tame book critics, the 'literary establishment' and (maybe most crucial of all) the 'literary readership' don't want anything more than that - they feel warm, safe and so very reassured by such backward looking an unchallenging humanism. Mitchell agrees to masquerade as a 'modern' and 'adventurous' writer and the readership agrees to pretend to celebrate him for those qualities, but really don't be confused - both are just indulging their so-very-familiar-and-British nostalgia for the Victorian.

There's nothing at all inherently evil in this of course (and from what I hear about Cloud Atlas, the diverse number of readers with different backgrounds and preferances who I respect and who enjoy, praise and appreciate the book, I feel that it must have something admirable about it and so I should check out). But, to me, it's just the same old same old of the cosy Oxbrige establishment looking after it own, heroising it's own shortcomings as some sort of cutting edge triumph, praising itself for its oh-so middle brow narrow mindedness. And that, ultimately, is what gets so very far up my nose about Mitchell and his ilk - it just doesn't do what it promises on the bookjacket.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Thanks for the namecheck IR but I think you've got me confused with someone else."
Sorry, I don't mean to put words in your mouth I just seemed to remember that you didn't like Ghostwritten and I thought that was the reason.

The bourgeois subject is absolutely central to his project (such as it is). Why? Because he's incapable of moving past that horizon technically, imaginatively and artistically.
This seems to be the crux of your problem with Mitchell but I must confess I don't really know what you mean, can you explain for me?
I know that to some people this will sound like heresy but I actually enjoyed Cloud Atlas and Ghostwritten (if you hate the latter I cannot imagine that you will think much differently about CA) a lot more than If On A.... I think it runs counter to everything that I've ever heard anyone say but I found Calvino's novel a lot more empty and impressed by it's cleverness than the latter two. Clearly it is a massive influence on Mitchell but I think that the student goes further than the teacher.
Also, it's interesting that you say Borges is an influence on Mitchell but I didn't really notice this, why do you say that?
 

John Doe

Well-known member
No need for apologies IR - it was nice you'd remembered that I'd commented on Mitchell before... as for you question about 'character' - well, that's not a question that I can answer succintly but I think it starts with the critique of the concept of essentialism that is such an important aspect of postmodern literature and theory. One of the canoncial strategies of the classic realist text is the grounding of given characters in a social mileu that is subject to certain pressures. The 'narrative' evidenced in the text is the tracking of the effects of those pressures on the given character(s) - the novel being the story of their 'development', in time, towards a certain positied sense of awareness, elightenment, self-realization etc that, once achieved, leads to an ending and a final closure. One of the pleasures of reading such works is the sense of identification the reader might feel with the character(s) - a humanistic identification with their dilemmas, situation, 'learning process' etc and it is in this encounter that the 'meaning' of a literary text is often thought to reside. However, the assumptions on which such fiction is based, the concept of the transparency of langauge, the idea of the 'sovereign' self have being exploded: the subject is fragmented, the text opaque, language and social experience, it is argued, are now constitutive of the subject and not the other way round. To rely too much on 'common sense' notions of self, identification etc is something of a cop out - it ducks all the difficult but central questions that challenge the writer. ANd that's where I think Mitchell is at: he wants his pre-modernist cake and to eat his postmodernism too: the 'meaning' of his work is too reliant on the assumptions and practices of the very thing he supposedly critiques...
(Reading this back, I'm not sure it makes much sense: you'd need to give me a couple of weeks and few thousand words, I reckon, to really try and grapple adequately with your question).
As for Calvino and If on a Winter's Night... - well, personally, I think there's more in a handful of pages of that wonderful novel than whole printed output of Mitchell (but we'll have to agree to differ there).
The Borges influence is foregrounded by Mitchell himself in Ghostwritten (which is what I meant about him making himself look an idiot: don't explicitly evoke the shadow of a master when you're nothing but a callow ingenune, it just shows your efforts in a bad light) when, I think, in one of the chapters a ghost (is it? a disembodied presence anyway) goes around inhabiting certain figures in history, one of which, Mitchell makes clear, is meant to be taken for Borges. The form of the novel - a labyrinthine structure - is clearly taken from Borges (who, really, bequeathed a whole vocabuarly of metaphors to his succesors of which the labyrinth is the most important) and, at the end of Ghostwritten, when you realize that the different chapters, narratives etc have all existed simultaneously in the mind of a man on the point of his death I think you're meant to think Ghostwritten is like the novel theorised in Borges's story 'The Garden of Forking Paths' - a novel which is just like a labyrinth, a spatial structure, in which all times, and all possibilities are made to be simultaneously present. (And probably the novel theorised in 'Tlon' too - in which only the most attentive of readers will be able to discern the true and terrible reality underlying its apparent surface).
As I say - this is all a bit haphazard and rambling, so forgive me if it doesn't make as much sense as I'd like it to ...
 
Last edited:

IdleRich

IdleRich
"ANd that's where I think Mitchell is at: he wants his pre-modernist cake and to eat his postmodernism too: the 'meaning' of his work is too reliant on the assumptions and practices of the very thing he supposedly critiques..."
I think I'm with you here. You're saying that Mitchell claims to have accepted the premise that "the concept of the transparency of langauge, the idea of the 'sovereign' self have being exploded: the subject is fragmented, the text opaque, language and social experience.....are now constitutive of the subject and not the other way round."
Yet this is not reflected in his actual work. Is that correct?
If so, my question would be, what makes you say that he has claimed to have accepted that premise? My second question would be, so what if in reality he hasn't, does that really matter when someone like me (as you may have guessed I have no academic background in this stuff, I'm merely someone who enjoys reading) is reading and enjoying the book?

"I think, in one of the chapters a ghost (is it? a disembodied presence anyway) goes around inhabiting certain figures in history, one of which, Mitchell makes clear, is meant to be taken for Borges"
Well, can't really argue with that, it's obviously a part of the book I'd completely forgotten.
I think it's a bit much though to say that because the book is complicated it is labyrinthine and thus owes a debt to The Labyrinth.

"at the end of Ghostwritten, when you realize that the different chapters, narratives etc have all existed simultaneously in the mind of a man on the point of his death"
Er, I guess that's something else that I'd forgotten but you're right it certainly sounds like a straight lift from Borges - what's the one where he prays for enough time to finish his masterwork and is given a kind of frozen eternity before the bullet from the firing squad hits him?
 

John Doe

Well-known member
what makes you say that he has claimed to have accepted that premise? My second question would be, so what if in reality he hasn't, does that really matter when someone like me (as you may have guessed I have no academic background in this stuff, I'm merely someone who enjoys reading) is reading and enjoying the book?

I don't know if Mitchell has or hasn't accepted such a premise, I was pointing out that he likes to make a very big show of utilising the influence and techinques of the likes of Borges, Calvino etc in a 'look at me, I'm sooo clever, cutting edge and postmodern' way, and yet he seems completely clueless about the underlying reason those writers he's so concerned to flag as INFLUENCES utilise such techniques (or if not clueless, incapable artistically of rising to the challenge they issue). Frankly, I find it glib and callow, and imagine - yes imagine IR - how my rage grows when, as I said earlier, he's praised for being the very sort of writer he fails to be. Oooh, it makes my blood boil! And my jaundiced rage about Mitchell isn't just about him as an indivudual, but its a wider frustration about arts and literature in these islands - the innate conservatism, the shameless patronage of those who are anointed (Mitchell, after all, got his break because, to put it bluntly, he's AS Byatt's biatch - very much on the inside of the inside), the cosy reception and support system that The Estabishment extends to those it considers its own...
Anyway, enough of that. SERENITY NOW!
As for your second point - well, of course there's nothing wrong with enjoying his writing because, well, you enjoy it. Reading is a multifaceted and complex pleasure and, like good sex, you should take it wherever and whenever you can get it. It's just that I don't think Mitchell deserves the plaudits he gets as the sort of writer he is - but as I say, many people whose opinion I respect (including your own) have praised Cloud Atlas which makes me think I should check it out to see what I think of it and what the fuss might be about...
To finish: my point about the labyrinth was that Ghostwritten is labyrinthine in a way that is rather explicitly defined by Borges - it's labyrinthine in a particularly Borgesian manner (and not, say, a Kate Fosse manner). And what is the name of the firing squad story you mention? - I'd forgotten that one. YOu see, yet ANOTHER shameless rip off by Mitchell of the Argentinian master.

Burn him! Burn him! (exeunt John Doe brandishing a pitch fork and burning torch)... :)
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"he likes to make a very big show of utilising the influence and techinques of the likes of Borges, Calvino etc in a 'look at me, I'm sooo clever, cutting edge and postmodern' way"
I must admit I've never read any interviews with David Mitchell and don't actually know much about him except what I've read in the prefaces of the books (and whatever I can infer from the books themselves). I've also never really read in depth reviews of him so I couldn't really comment as to how he is held up by the establishment - although obviously I assume that he is well regarded as he has twice been nominated for the Booker. I guess you're saying that the very fact that he mentions these authors and utilises their stylistic tricks means that he is setting himself up as some kind of successor to them. Maybe that is indeed the case. I suppose what I'm saying is that's not really something that bothers me or has influenced my enjoyment of the books at all.

"As for your second point - well, of course there's nothing wrong with enjoying his writing because, well, you enjoy it"
I guess that's pretty much what I was working up to saying.
Anyway, I really can't imagine that you will find anything to change your mind in Cloud Atlas as it really is very similar to Ghostwritten as far as I'm concerned. Still, I guess it won't take you long to read so I certainly don't want to put you off it.
I'm afraid I can't remember the name of the Borges short story, someone here must know though.
 

fldsfslmn

excremental futurism
To finish: my point about the labyrinth was that Ghostwritten is labyrinthine in a way that is rather explicitly defined by Borges - it's labyrinthine in a particularly Borgesian manner

Tautological? Confusing? I can't decide. I've not read any David Mitchell but I think his "making a big show of his Borges influence" is less worrisome than someone making a big show of the fact that they've read Borges and spotted a connection. I don't mean that to sound harsh, btw, but it irritates me that Borges can wear his Poe on his sleeve and still be unimpeachable, whilst a contemporary author is expected to somehow create their fiction in a vacuum.

EDIT: I am in a terrible mood today.
 
Last edited:

jed_

Well-known member
after a fairly weak start (and some of the 70's cultural references which are so forcefully shoehorned in that most stick out like a sore thumb and a few have made me groan.) i thought "Black Swan Green" was superb. it really takes off after the Frobisher section and Jason, who i thought was weak and frustrating, suddenly started to interest me. the last 20 pages or so were incredibly moving. in fact i'm welling up just thinking about them now (no joke). there's a beautiful moment when jason meets the man at the "house in the woods" at the end *SLIGHT SPOILER* and jason says he thought the house was miles from anywhere and the man replies that the wood is "no more than the size of three or four football pitches, it's hardly sherwood forest." it's an amazing moment because it's so familiar yet so unexpected; a small moment that subtly changes your impression of the entire book. childhood is like that. your small world seems so E X P A N S I V E .


i can't believe this book hasn't been marketed in a major way to teenagers. if i was a parent or teacher i would be urging kids to read it.
 
Top