has hip hop been "aesthetically brutalised"?

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
Rachel Verinder said:
i'd say "black heavy metal" rather than "black indie" given the overstated machoisms (as with macho metallers, you can't help feeling they're HIDING something) and also the similarity in contemporary hip hop album cover design to those of metal albums - very much a fenced-off hive(mind). you go into a record shop now and look at the new hip hop releases and i get the same sinking/bewildered feeling i used to get from looking at new HM releases.

Yeh, that's a much better comparison, actually. Though I think we'd need to specify 80s metal (I get the impression contemporary metal isn't half as cliche-ridden as hip hop is now). Yeh, Whitesnake, that kind of thing.

i saw that ekow piece in the indie - it really was head in hands time as far as i was concerned.

It was that tried and tested Julie Burchill technique of adopting a position by reference to the outrage you think you might provoke in the audience --- but without the writing chops to carry it off. Just silly. Biggie Smalls is your hero, Ekow? Well, we know it isn't true - and it really is way too tepid to shock us.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
k-punk said:
Hip hop's utopia is only a grotesque hyperbolized version of capitalism

agreed. but here's another perspective:

one amazing thing about the human species is its maleability. we humans can get used to ANYthing, how ever horrible the situation; and most importantly, find beauty and poetry in desperate and abject conditions of life. Isn't hiphop within the context of late capitalism a beautiful testament to this?
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
confucius said:
agreed. but here's another perspective:

one amazing thing about the human species is its maleability. we humans can get used to ANYthing, how ever horrible the situation; and most importantly, find beauty and poetry in desperate and abject conditions of life. Isn't hiphop within the context of late capitalism a beautiful testament to this?


Why is it beautiful and not an ugly testament to an ugly situation?
 

zhao

there are no accidents
k-punk said:
Why is it beautiful and not an ugly testament to an ugly situation?

do you really want me to list the ways in which I think hiphop is beautiful? how about the efficiency of its means and the effectiveness of its ends? or the inherent logic of its process and the integrity of its form? or how about this: when I hear a clever rhyme it puts a smile on my face and when a hot beat drops all the girls rush the floor?

hiphop at its best turns ugly day to day reality into a liberating and energizing experience, sharing transformative qualities with any type of real art-form. ( not to mention the humour, depth, or sheer oomph)

and another thing... I'm by no means pro-mysogeny or think violence towards gays is OK, and I do think a lot of the macho bullshit is overplayed and cliche. but on the other hand, in defence of the ultra-masculine thing: in this day and age of "metro-sexual" twats and passive-aggressive sissy-men, I think it's fucking righteous that there are still clubs like Black Metal with a "no girls allowed" policy. I can't speak for anyone else but sometimes my inner-viking feels really fucking repressed sometimes.
 

minikomi

pu1.pu2.wav.noi
<i>Hate it or love, the underdog's ontop
And I'm gon' shine homie until my heart stops</i>

something about 50s delivery of this that i cant help but be moved by.. even if i dislike the rest of the song. it makes me want to hear more 'conscious' stuff from the man.
 

Diaz

Well-known member
confucius said:
n, I think it's fucking righteous that there are still clubs like Black Metal with a "no girls allowed" policy. I can't speak for anyone else but sometimes my inner-viking feels really fucking repressed sometimes.

did you actually mean righteous in the ironic metal/surfer sense here or in the sense of truly just?

p.s. i think you need to meet more hardcore chicks. they are often better at fun and violence than a lot of douchebaggy dudes on speed i know.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
confucius said:
and another thing... I'm by no means pro-mysogeny or think violence towards gays is OK, and I do think a lot of the macho bullshit is overplayed and cliche. but on the other hand, in defence of the ultra-masculine thing: in this day and age of "metro-sexual" twats and passive-aggressive sissy-men, I think it's fucking righteous that there are still clubs like Black Metal with a "no girls allowed" policy. I can't speak for anyone else but sometimes my inner-viking feels really fucking repressed sometimes.

You're so right. I'm converted now. There aren't enough real men! Hail hip hop, it's stiffening men's resolve. In no way like Whitesnake then.
 

Tim F

Well-known member
I should clarify that i was being a bit glib when I said that guns, drugs and hoes are endlessly fascinating to me. They're not, but I'm often surprised by the capacity of the better rappers to <i>make</i> them interesting to me (this is not to say that a lot of hip hop on this topic isn't cliched or unpleasant or both).

I can totally accept that you would see things differently Mark.

That said if you were willing to ever take a chance, I think you'd find Trick Daddy's last album <i>Thug Matrimony: Married to the Streets</i> to be quite an interesting take on the whole thug persona. Like Kanye West it frequently takes a position of ambivalence towards it, but not because Trick's been to college; it's more of an "I'm getting a bit older and need to think about my children" kinda thing. Check out "The Children's Song" especially.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
honestly, that 'im getting older and need to take care of my kids... but im still a thug!' is one of the most hackneyed 'im a veteran' personas hip hop has given birth to in the last ten years.
 
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Tim F

Well-known member
Oh I'm not saying its unprecedented but I really like the way Trick Daddy actually does it (especially in terms of trying to reflect his position in sound of the music itself) - the only thing i can think of which it approaches it closely is De La Soul's "Trying", which is also great but much more "look at me! I'm trying to say something important!" as you might expect.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
K-PUNK, why just pick on my last minute defense of black metal and not respond to the bulk of my last post: the reasons I gave for hiphop being beautiful?
 

Octopus?

Well-known member
Diaz said:
did you actually mean righteous in the ironic metal/surfer sense here or in the sense of truly just?

p.s. i think you need to meet more hardcore chicks. they are often better at fun and violence than a lot of douchebaggy dudes on speed i know.

The Viking club is disintegrating pretty steadily as well, due to the gradual embrace of some mighty Valkyries into black metal circles. They include one of the members of the insanely innovative eco-terrorist BM group Velvet Cacoon (playing steam powered guitar piped through an aquarium of blood), the crazed female fronted blackened thrash group Ludicra from San Francisco and the trailblazers Opera IX that have had Ms. Cadaveria as frontwoman since 1990 (as well as a host of lesser-known groups).

Black Metal, Doom and Death Metal are all becoming much more open to women...one of the most popular thrash/death groups currently operating is fronted by a woman (Arch Enemy), so I think it's fair to say you'll be wiping lipstick traces off your drinking horn soon.

Seconding the recommendation of hardcore ladies as well...New York's Hiretsukan puts 95% of the hardcore out their to shame (not a difficult task, but still...)
 

zhao

there are no accidents
see, that's like, totally rad. head bangin' hardcore chicks covered in blood unleashing evil power-chords while growling like rabid succubi? bring it on! :)

no seriously, I think it's awesome.
 

Mr H

Active member
k-punk said:
(btw, did anyone see Ekow Eshun's piece on Biggy Smalls as his hero in the Independent the other week? In a year replete with rubbish journalism, that nevertheless stood out for its embarrassing cluelessness...)

Rachel Verinder said:
i saw that ekow piece in the indie - it really was head in hands time as far as i was concerned.

Does anybody have a link to the Ekow Eshun article? The Independent website doesn't have a search facility and I can't find it via google.
 

PurpleCityBirds

New member
a thought about people & Hip Hop

ey i'm new here, but this topic caught my eye so forgive me for putting my 2 cents in.

When do we take an actual stance of showmenship with a gratifying essensce of what hip hop really is instead of this level that everyone else has put out for us we find the nessesity to be what everyone else is instead of being what we are nothing. Nothing of a whole lot of something what we will never become hip hop isn't what we believe it to be. It is something that we ourselves will and won't ever become or comprehend. Comprehension of what we need to be is something that will never be acceptable. Doubtible that this is where hip hop had intended to be or become. We to this day, instead of looking back on what it was wanting to be we say what it should be. There are artists that have so much pride that they will never know what hip hop can be. So we start beef or battles yet the underground is forgotten cause some underground artists never get out of the battle MC mentallity. When battling MC`s just sit there and tell you what they can do with their words instead of showing you, with a story-line of their songs and lyrics thats why some people won't ever respect Mos Def, like he should be. He is before his time no one was ready for that, like no one was ready for Big L and thats why people in the game are idolizing Lil' Wayne who just takes Jay-Z`s lyrics and rewords them to his mind set. Hip hop has and will always continue too lose its way and that why some artists will never get recognition its where you finally see music for what it is instead of what it should could or needs too be and to be an artist isn't meant too be easy or room for being lazy its there too express what you see, not what you want too be like. All these weak rhymefest type mc`s who get challenged while they are high and think after that that they can actually comform an actual thought to a verse and then a verse into 18 verses which will become a song that isnt saying anything but people think its hard cause they can relate to the nothing. Because people are filled with the crap that MTV or BET has fed them because they have people that can make anything look or sound good thats why the only "good" artists are the ones that have been signed for over ten yrs but then once and a while you will get an artists like LL who is a coke head and plastic surgery junkie who just does what the blue collar corp. heads tell him too do but the sad thing that gets realized is even stay true to what we see is not true at all cause everyone wants money look at Talib...look at Common!!! I bet even if Prime got a chance he would sell out and be a club junkie............We are nothing and music will always be what the big corps want it to be instead of what it is seen as on TV, Magazines, etc..............Who are they? People that are lead like sheep to believe what "cool" is, but actually we are just doing the same thing over and over again. Nothing is new or ever wil be new because its all been done but just at different times when the moment calls for it. The only reason hiphop and rap will always be the "cool" thing to get into is because certain people will always want to be urban and people who look hispanic will always front like they are in some way. People are shallow and always will be and its tiring seeing what you want to do with music or art in some way but you cant cause no one gives or get true respect.
 

blissblogger

Well-known member
HMGovt said:
"One of those shots clearly took a chunk of 50cents' cerebral cortex with it. Mumbling, tuneless cunt.

nah, one of the only things 50's got going for him is the earworm factor -- his hooks lodge in your head. he's perfected gangsta-as-ringtone-jingle. we were out of town recently, driving a rented car, and he rules US commercial rap radio for this reason, he or one of his proteges seemed to be every other song. made me think of howard hampton on G-funk back in 93 -- "supple and vacant muzak".
 

luka

Well-known member
perhaps your inadequate spelling and grammatical ability was the reason they turned you down for a job.

and fuck it stelfox, i'm not going to sit here as a professional and be slagged off by a bunch of jealous losers.

you want to improve things, go write to john lewis, ask him to give you some work. if you don't like what we do in time out then go and read the source or start your own fucking magazine where you can write 60,000 word treatises on diplo and wank yourself silly if your bank manager will let you.

otherwise start showing me some proper respect. it's about fucking time people here did.

good thread.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
a timely reminder that things were pretty harsh in 2005, jealous losers and passive-aggressive sissy-men as far as the eye could see.
 
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