Poor State of Grime

M

mms

sometimes
2stepfan said:
My point exactly. I'd like to know how well the Grime / Grime 2 compo's sold (MMS?). I think there's a ready market for such a compilation at the 5,000 units level. Whether that would work economically depends on advances artists require -- but I think there's big untapped demand for grime. I mean, my wife likes all the grime I play her (more the grinding stuff than the sweet stuff or the minimal mysoginist rap stuff).

Something, in fact, like Logan's recent mix, which is brilliant, not all to my taste and I wasn't too sure about the voiceovers but as a product it's excellent. It should be released properly -- there's almost a moral necessity to do so.
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there are the bossman mix cds - they're decent - i got the 2nd one in warpmart with the first one free.

as for the grime/grime 2 they did around the 5,000 units level the first one better than the second when i finished there.

looking forward to the rinse packs - they are looking exciting.

i'm not sure if there is a big untapped market for grime - on the whole it's fast aggressive trebbly and raw and it's not rock music - - ie it's electronic music with almost rocky sonics - it's almost anomaly in some sensess - gonna take people ages to get used to and also to get over the whole sosolid/guns/negativity thing that still associates itself with this sort of music.
 
B

Blackdown

nexKeysound
mms said:
there are the bossman mix cds - they're decent - i got the 2nd one in warpmart with the first one free.

as for the grime/grime 2 they did around the 5,000 units level the first one better than the second when i finished there.

looking forward to the rinse packs - they are looking exciting.

i'm not sure if there is a big untapped market for grime - on the whole it's fast aggressive trebbly and raw and it's not rock music - - ie it's electronic music with almost rocky sonics - it's almost anomaly in some sensess - gonna take people ages to get used to and also to get over the whole sosolid/guns/negativity thing that still associates itself with this sort of music.
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the difference with these DVDs/Bossman style comps is invariably none of the artists get paid. 'it's all promotion.' do you think Bossman had £30k to pay the artists?
 
M

mms

sometimes
Blackdown said:
the difference with these DVDs/Bossman style comps is invariably none of the artists get paid. 'it's all promotion.' do you think Bossman had £30k to pay the artists?
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of course not mate - but as far as overview/underviews and quality avalaible grime comps go its pretty good.
 
L

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
I'd do lots of compilation, but I have the respect of wanting to ask the artists permission to put stuff on my cds when I do them.

And that is a difficult thing to organise, especially with so many people either in or chasing deals.
 
hint

hint

party record with a siren
Blackdown said:
the difference with these DVDs/Bossman style comps is invariably none of the artists get paid. 'it's all promotion.' do you think Bossman had £30k to pay the artists?
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Is this unique to certain scenes? I mean the assumption that everyone should get an advance to have a track on a (properly released) compilation?
 
soul_pill

soul_pill

Well-known member
I run a medium sized label, and i'd love to do a series of grime compilations, but in my experience these artists are looking for paper - they're not impressed unless you're talking big advances, expensive videos... as for a comp: probably at least 500 a track - for a 12 tracker that's 6grand advance - you'd be looking at selling around 12,000 sales to recoup that and not much is doing that nowadays.

I'm up for doing it if someone can negotiate with the artists ?
 
hint

hint

party record with a siren
soul_pill said:
I run a medium sized label, and i'd love to do a series of grime compilations, but in my experience these artists are looking for paper - they're not impressed unless you're talking big advances, expensive videos... as for a comp: probably at least 500 a track - for a 12 tracker that's 6grand advance - you'd be looking at selling around 12,000 sales to recoup that and not much is doing that nowadays.

I'm up for doing it if someone can negotiate with the artists ?
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Yeah - there's the rub.

It needs to be seen as promotion rather than guaranteed income - sign a track over for a cut of royalties if the release breaks even. Of course, it would require a level of trust between the label and the artists and I suspect that that's going to be the biggest hurdle unless you're someone like Rinse.
 
C

captain easychord

Guest
it seems worrisome to me that there are barely any raves. how can the scene possibly grow without parties? i was sold on grime through those old eskimo dance DVD's.

the releases seem on point to me though. don't releases usually slow down during the summer anyway (or am i off base entirely?)
 
Grievous Angel

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
hint said:
Is this unique to certain scenes? I mean the assumption that everyone should get an advance to have a track on a (properly released) compilation?
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No, it's the democratisation of knowledge of the business models underpinning the music business. Everyone may as well have a copy of Passman* on their shelves. This is pretty ubiquitous through all scenes AFRAICT. And, TBH, quite right too -- people should be protecting their interests.

The tragedy is that a little more trust and a little more win-win thinking might end up paying people better than insisting on an advance on every compo track. Yet you can't blame people wanting to get paid -- it's not greed, just self-respect.

Surely the way to resolve this is through labels doing their own compilations (and re-releasing 12s to cater for people trying out tunes on CD before buying on vinyl)? This wouldn't obviate the economic negotiation w.r.t. advances versus royalties, but there would be a bit more trust between label and artists and it would be -- well, should be -- an easier negotiation.

So, any sign of this happening?

If there really are fewer raves happening -- can anyone confirm this with some numbers? -- this is a concern. The audience goes cold without contact.

* standard music biz / legals text
 
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B

bassnation

the abyss
2stepfan said:
No, it's the democratisation of knowledge of the business models underpinning the music business. Everyone may as well have a copy of Passman* on their shelves. And, TBH, quite right too -- people should be protecting their interests.

The tragedy is that a little more trust and a little more win-win thinking might end up paying people better thanb insisting on a 5K advance on every compo track.

* standard music biz / legals text
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altruistic behaviour moves the whole show onwards and upwards - its what makes us so successful as a species.

i guess this whole issue about the lack of grime mix cds reminds me just how different this scene is to all the old 90's dance scenes - which of course all ran on mixtapes and compilations rather than artist albums.

only the compilations from the bigger record companies would bother clearing the tracks and paying the artists but then again the 90's thing was always dj-centric. maybe this is a consequence of the artist coming back to the fore once again.
 
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M

mms

sometimes
bassnation said:
altruistic behaviour moves the whole show onwards and upwards - its what makes us so successful as a species.

i guess this whole issue about the lack of grime mix cds reminds me just how different this scene is to all the old 90's dance scenes - which of course all ran on mixtapes and compilations rather than artist albums.

only the compilations from the bigger record companies would bother clearing the tracks and paying the artists but then again the 90's thing was always dj-centric. maybe this is a consequence of the artist coming back to the fore once again.
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of course back then any sausage with a deck mixer and tape to tape could make a small fortune mixing up all the latest rave tunes. didn't even have to have a name as a dj - just a vaguley esoteric reference to a feeling a person might have on e!
 
B

bassnation

the abyss
mms said:
of course back then any sausage with a deck mixer and tape to tape could make a small fortune mixing up all the latest rave tunes. didn't even have to have a name as a dj - just a vaguley esoteric reference to a feeling a person might have on e!
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lol, and of course you need the old computer generated mixtape cover with fractals and a robot woman traversing a bridge hanging in space!
 
hint

hint

party record with a siren
2stepfan said:
No, it's the democratisation of knowledge of the business models underpinning the music business. Everyone may as well have a copy of Passman* on their shelves. This is pretty ubiquitous through all scenes AFRAICT. And, TBH, quite right too -- people should be protecting their interests.
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Well, in the music industry, protecting your financial interests very often occurs at the expense of protecting your artistic interests, doesn't it? If you concentrate on doing what's best for your music, the rewards will (eventually) be so much greater.

We've effectively come full circle - artists now being so cynical about the business that they'll happily sign away rights as long as they get a lump sum ("If I'm getting paid, it must be good for me!"), whereas in the past they did the same thing because they were naïve (with the money serving as a distraction).
 
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D

DJL

i'm joking
Not enough parties has to be the main thing. Also, a pure grime crews rave is crap because it turns the rave into a show or gig rather than a rave with no one dancing. People need to put on parties with DJs playing bashment, 4x4, Jungle/DnB even oldskool hardcore or whatever and maybe one or two hype MCs and then have the crews doing short 30-45 min PA sets at a couple of intervals. The raves need to go on all night as well not just till 2 or 4 am but till 6-7am or later if possible. Sidewinder seemed to have the formula right last year but then messed it up.
 
Woebot

Woebot

Well-known member
silverdollar said:
mac10
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i have taped one show. righteous mixing.

Blackdown said:
i agree with woe, it has gone a bit quiet.

tracks from radio sets keeping me enthused are...

ruff sqwad + wiley 'together'
that 'mozart manor' tune
bruza 'so real'
the danny weed 12" on southside
wiley 'i need space'
bashy 'pryin'

hmm lots of more mellow tunes on that list.

am looking forward to the Newham Generals LP.
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i look forward to this stuff.
 
Woebot

Woebot

Well-known member
Logan Sama said:
That's strange.

The Roll Deep and Kano albums were both "really exciting" when they hadn't been released and people were trading radio rips and leaked copies of tracks.
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well i hadnt heard them! i see what you're saying, but really i couldnt make much of a case for either of them. and it pains me to say that, cos as a journo (in spite of people's usual "typical tear 'em down journalist behaviour" attitude) if you're following a scene, you really really WANT LPs and "events" like these two records (and the KANO is marginally better, and yes i should spend more time with it) to be brilliant. cos that pays.

i see what wiley's doing with the roll deep lp (because lets face it his solo lp WAS a proper wall-to-wall grime LP) its just a really difficult feat to pull off.
 
G

gumdrops

Well-known member
Blackdown said:
there aren't many people doing this because they're loads of hassle to do and dont make much money. on an artist album the copyright rests with one person. on a compilation 30 (say) individual agreements have to be made with different artists or labels which is a stress to organise. seeing as everyone in grime wants to get paid loads (fair enough if you've been brought up on road and are hot...) it makes comps economically somewhere between tricky and unviable.
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im wondering how the likes of jetstar and those labels did comps like jungle mania now. there must be a way around it. i find it odd that everyone in grime wants to be paid loads - its not like theyre gigantic stars, not yet anyway. perhaps grime is simply just a really small market (smaller than many people here, myself included, would like to think), so labels dont see the point in putting comps together.
 
P

Pearsall

Prodigal Son
I get the sense that grime is considerably smaller than jungle was at its 94/95 peak in London. I believe that 'Run the Road' has done about 15k so far, but didn't Logical Progression do about 80-90,000 units? Hell, big jungle releases back in the day could easily do 20,000 copies just off vinyl.

Plus there were way more raves back then, and a lot of them were much bigger than anything going on now. I remember going to World Dance NYE '96 at Wembley Conference Center and there were about 20,000 people! Has there ever been a grime event that size?
 
M

mms

sometimes
Pearsall said:
I get the sense that grime is considerably smaller than jungle was at its 94/95 peak in London. I believe that 'Run the Road' has done about 15k so far, but didn't Logical Progression do about 80-90,000 units? Hell, big jungle releases back in the day could easily do 20,000 copies just off vinyl.

Plus there were way more raves back then, and a lot of them were much bigger than anything going on now. I remember going to World Dance NYE '96 at Wembley Conference Center and there were about 20,000 people! Has there ever been a grime event that size?
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yep i think you are right just generally music ws much bigger then, there is a massive divide between a successful record and a successful record nowdays.

what people want and expect from music vis a vis with what gets the top marketting budgets is hugelyhugely backwards looking and conservative at the moment. its really quite shocking what people will eat up, even perfectly sane people you might respect on level.
 
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