k-punk on terror

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henrymiller

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Before the history books get changed remember the Reichstag fire perpetrated by its occupants and blamed on a false threat in order to further the fear, motive and enthusiasm of the German population to engage in a World War!

this isn't strictly accurate! iirc the nazis done it in the run-up to the 1933 elections, and blamed the communists (not exactly a false threat, subjectively). so it wasn't done by its occupants (it was done by *some of* its occupants) and it wasn't done to get the german population behind a 'world war'.

but if you're as right about the 7/7 bombings as you are about a well-documented historical episode, yikes!

what else has alex jones got right?
 

DJL

i'm joking
henrymiller said:
this isn't strictly accurate! iirc the nazis done it in the run-up to the 1933 elections, and blamed the communists (not exactly a false threat, subjectively). so it wasn't done by its occupants (it was done by *some of* its occupants) and it wasn't done to get the german population behind a 'world war'.

but if you're as right about the 7/7 bombings as you are about a well-documented historical episode, yikes!

what else has alex jones got right?

Lol, I don't claim to be right with regard to what I've said - simply that is a a feasible alternative explanation.

My history is really terrible I admit so I submit to your details above regarding the Reichstag building fire.
What was the reason for the fire if it wasn't to get the population behind military action?
 

johneffay

Well-known member
DJL said:
I had the fortune of actually hearing the interview on Radio 2 on the 7/7 with the guy who was running the exercises involving all three targetted underground stations. He seemed as equally flabbergasted as the presenter over this uncanny coincidence. Since then he has also remained strangely quiet over the whole issue.
No he hasn't. He simply made a throwaway comment on a radio station which conspiracy theorists have twisted out of all proportion. Think about it rationally: Either he was involved in the 'conspiracy', in which case he wouldn't have made the comment, or he he didn't think there was one. The guy does freelance security work for the government, do you really think that he'd jeopardize that by blurting out the secrets of the New World Order (or whatever) in the media?

The four asian lads who's backgrounds do not fit the profile of suicidal mass murderers could quite conceivably of been involved in this training exercise.
As I said earlier, nowhere does the bloke from Visor claim that he had people on the ground. Look at their website and see what it actually is they do for a living rather than just taking on board the unconsidered assertions of a bunch of paranoids who take this sort of bullshit seriously.

These times are fucked. George Orwell was spot on. I find those unwilling to even acknowledge the above theories as a possibility are generally scared by what it would mean if they happen to be true. It means that a lot of what you believe in is in fact a lie which is something not easily accepted from my own experience... Nobody likes to feel they are not in control and if the above has any strand of truth in it then we are a mile away from our believed ideals of democracy.
I agree that the times are indeed fucked when we have security death squads roaming the London Underground. However that doesn't mean that we should acknowledge material that is plainly lunacy as a possibility. Assess it by all means, but then discard.

After all, if the entire thing was a plot by the Masonic Lizards who really control everything in order to scare the shit out of people and so justify tightening their grip, why would they need to use more than one suicide bomber to achieve the task. Oh, hang on though, it was probably really a form of mass sacrifice in order to raise Dread Cthulhu from R'lyeh. They obviously didn't mange to kill enough though, so we can look forward to another atrocity on a numerologically significant date any time now ;)
 

DJL

i'm joking
johneffay said:
No he hasn't. He simply made a throwaway comment on a radio station which conspiracy theorists have twisted out of all proportion. Think about it rationally: Either he was involved in the 'conspiracy', in which case he wouldn't have made the comment, or he he didn't think there was one. The guy does freelance security work for the government, do you really think that he'd jeopardize that by blurting out the secrets of the New World Order (or whatever) in the media?

In reality all he did was tell the facts as he saw them ie. they were conducting an exercise for the possibility of bombs being exploded on the underground that involved those three stations. When it actually happened I would of been as surprised as he was and contacting one of the main radio stations to explain details of this pretty amazing coincidence isn't an unreasonable action. I can't quite remember wether he had rang in or was actually at the studio (the latter I think but not sure).

johneffay said:
As I said earlier, nowhere does the bloke from Visor claim that he had people on the ground. Look at their website and see what it actually is they do for a living rather than just taking on board the unconsidered assertions of a bunch of paranoids who take this sort of bullshit seriously.

Like I said they can go over the top sometimes much like Icke and his lizards but that it not to say there aren't elements of truth amongst these fantasies which are incredibly inciteful. The mad people are mad for a reason.


johneffay said:
I agree that the times are indeed fucked when we have security death squads roaming the London Underground. However that doesn't mean that we should acknowledge material that is plainly lunacy as a possibility. Assess it by all means, but then discard.

After all, if the entire thing was a plot by the Masonic Lizards who really control everything in order to scare the shit out of people and so justify tightening their grip, why would they need to use more than one suicide bomber to achieve the task. Oh, hang on though, it was probably really a form of mass sacrifice in order to raise Dread Cthulhu from R'lyeh. They obviously didn't mange to kill enough though, so we can look forward to another atrocity on a numerologically significant date any time now ;)

Sometime the supposed lunatics aren't lunatics at all and the general masses are the ones who have been led down a fantastical path. At the end of the day you have to make your own mind up on these things but its better to hear all points of view imo.
 

johneffay

Well-known member
DJL said:
In reality all he did was tell the facts as he saw them ie. they were conducting an exercise for the possibility of bombs being exploded on the underground that involved those three stations. When it actually happened I would of been as surprised as he was and contacting one of the main radio stations to explain details of this pretty amazing coincidence isn't an unreasonable action. I can't quite remember wether he had rang in or was actually at the studio (the latter I think but not sure).
In the studio. He didn't contact them; they contacted him. He's one of these rent-an-experts the BBC always drags in when something like this happens. As I said in a previous post, he says he was conducting an exercise 'based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning'. Note that what he doesn't say is that the exercise was based solely on those stations. It was just a throway comment by a guy the BBC dragged in to talk about what could be done to prevent attacks.

At the end of the day you have to make your own mind up on these things but its better to hear all points of view imo.
Very true, but some are worth spending more time on than others. There is no doubt that this and other governments are using terrorist attacks to do some appalling things both on a local and international scale, but it's a hell of a leap from there to the claim that they are orchestrating such attacks as part of some global conspiracy.
 
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DJL

i'm joking
johneffay said:
In the studio. He didn't contact them; they contacted him. He's one of these rent-an-experts the BBC always drags in when something like this happens. As I said in a previous post, he says he was conducting an exercise 'based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning'. Note that what he doesn't say is that the exercise was based solely on those stations. It was just a throway comment by a guy the BBC dragged in to talk about what could be done to prevent attacks.


Very true, but some are worth spending more time on than others. There is no doubt that this and other governments are using terrorist attacks to do some appalling things both on a local and international scale, but it's a hell of a leap from there to the claim that they are orchestrating such attacks as part of some global conspiracy.

I get what you are saying - it sounds mental but, using my logic and reason and everything I have read or heard about it, I don't find it implausible. Society to me seems pyramid based and I don't think that government is at, or entirely at, the top which makes me wonder who is?

Maybe I'm completely wrong and it was asian kids from leeds blowing themselves up on the underground in the name of Islam. There have been so many inconsistences in the news that really you would just be taking somebody's else's word for it just as you would if you took mine. So, like I said it's really a case of people making their own minds up.
 

johneffay

Well-known member
DJL said:
I get what you are saying - it sounds mental but, using my logic and reason and everything I have read or heard about it, I don't find it implausible. Society to me seems pyramid based and I don't think that government is at, or entirely at, the top which makes me wonder who is?

I think your pyramid doesn't work as well as you think. Basically, most of the people who claim to be in control don't have as much power as they would like you to believe. Half these departments are at ecah other's throats anyway and that's before you include international factors and the power of the market. I don't think anyone's really in charge, they all just react to events.

There have been so many inconsistences in the news
Absolutely but that can mostly be explained by the fact that that most, if not all, news outlets
a. Twist stories to fit their own agenda.
b. Report things when they don't know what's going on.

I'm probably more cynical than you, in that I think that most of the stuff that feeds conspiracy theories can be put down to incompetence rather than Machiavellian Princes.
 
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DJL

i'm joking
johneffay said:
I'm probably more cynical than you, in that I think that most of the stuff that feeds conspiracy theories can be put down to incompetence rather than Machiavellian Princes.

Incompetence plays a major part in what is going on.

The people I'm interested in are corporate barons, strong royal lines with long and interesting histories, Rupert Murdoch and similar, past presidents, military/industrialists, large land owners etc... Basically all unelected advisors to our government at the peak of society in terms of worth and influence.
 

mms

sometimes
DJL said:
The people I'm interested in are corporate barons, strong royal lines with long and interesting histories, Rupert Murdoch and similar, past presidents, military/industrialists, large land owners etc... Basically all unelected advisors to our government at the peak of society in terms of worth and influence.

or this is what they want you to think. :cool:
 

hint

party record with a siren
k-punk said:
What THOSE three stations on THAT very day? How low are the odds on that?

As hard as it may be to believe sometimes, some people are actually good at doing their jobs. So, yes - I believe it to be well within the realms of possibility that an experienced security firm might be able to pick likely targets for this kind of attack and, more importantly, be right.
 

henrymiller

Well-known member
what time did this guy go on the radio? did he say 3 stations or more? until about 3pm, many more than 3 stations were thought to be involved, so if he went on air in the morning, he can't have said 'exactly these 3 stations'.
 

johneffay

Well-known member
henrymiller said:
what time did this guy go on the radio? did he say 3 stations or more? until about 3pm, many more than 3 stations were thought to be involved, so if he went on air in the morning, he can't have said 'exactly these 3 stations'.

In the evening. As I said, he doesn't say three stations; he's ambiguous about the number of stations. You can listen to it here. There is also a clip of him on Channel Four News doing the rounds, but it doesn't add anything to his earlier comments.
 
O

Omaar

Guest
According to Jones' transcript, and the audio on the page, power states:

"At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now."

He doesn't mention the number of stations, it could be only 2 from this statement.

He later modified this original statement to claim that:

"It is confirmed that a short number of 'walk through' scenarios planed [sic] well in advance had commenced that morning for a private company in London (as part of a wider project that remains confidential) and that two scenarios related directly to terrorist bombs at the same time as the ones that actually detonated with such tragic results. One scenario in particular, was very similar to real time events."

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2005/130705newdevelopments.htm

I watched part of an Alex Jones video once, it was incredibly poorly produced and the guy is obviously a bit of a twit, but this still seems a bit strange to me, especially considering a very similar thing happened before 9/11.
 

henrymiller

Well-known member
Mr. Khan, Mr. Tanweer and Mr. Hussain were part of a larger clique of young British-raised South Asian men in Beeston, a neighborhood of Leeds, who turned their backs on what they came to see as a decadent, demoralizing Western culture.

really? mercedes-driving, cricket-playing guys by most accounts. question: is 'british-raised South Asian' a good description? NYT says britain hasn't evolved towards hyphenates like 'african-american'. but how useful or indeed accurate is 'african-american'? it too has problems.

In many ways, the transformation [to Islam] has had positive elements: the men live healthier and more constructive lives than many of their peers here, Asian or white, who have fallen prey to drugs, alcohol or petty crime.

woah. never forget america banned alcohol in the last century.
Many here see answers in the sense of injustice at events both at home and abroad that is far more widespread among Muslims than many Westerners recognize

again, these bombers were 'Westerners'. and those million 15 feb marchers felt a deep sense of injustice.

basically, there is nothing 'structural' about these psychologistic attempts to explain the 'motivation' of the bombers. the bombers themselves were marks. you will never explain the attacks in terms of subjective motivation. it's very un-k-punk really.
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
i wasn't suggesting that the ny times undertook a "structural" analysis of the mindset of the bombers

merely said that the findings of the article were consistent w/ k-punk's take
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
henrymiller said:
but how useful or indeed accurate is 'african-american'? it too has problems.

what term would you suggest?

and despite the injustice and oppression that african-americans have faced and continue to face, they see themselves as "belonging" to american society in ways that SE asians don't see themselves as belonging to britain

save for the black panthers in the late 60s/early 70s, african americans have been markedly non-violent in their organized actions

and black violence, in its discrete instances, is for the most directed against other blacks, not whites or the upper classes

henry miller said:
woah. never forget america banned alcohol in the last century.

the NYT remark reflects the prevailing american ideology of "health" and "adjustment" to demands of the capitalist economy -- i.e., be productive, make a contribution, etc

however, your response is a bit overblown = "never forget america banned alcohol"

in fact for k-punk these people replaced one mode of self-destruction (drugs, alcohol, hedonism) with another mode of self-destruction (suicide attacks)

henry miller said:
again, these bombers were 'Westerners'

i think their position is more ambiguous -- they're neither the one (se asian muslims) or the other (post-religious westerners)

henry miller said:
and those million 15 feb marchers felt a deep sense of injustice

yes, this is the point that BOTH k-punk and the ny times article make -- which is why i said the two "chimed," not that the structure of the analyses was the same
 

henrymiller

Well-known member
i'm not sure why you keep saying 'SE asians'. the families of 3 of the 4 came from pakistan, the 4th from africa (or w. indies? can't remember). the 21/7 bombers mostly from africa.

and despite the injustice and oppression that african-americans have faced and continue to face, they see themselves as "belonging" to american society in ways that SE asians don't see themselves as belonging to britain

yes, but the historical circumstances are very different. many americans, white and black, identify along 'ethnic' lines you won't find in britain. and of course the process of post-colonial immigration into britain has an entirely different history than the history of black america. the injustice is different in both cases; historically the oppression in america was far worse.

for k-punk these people replaced one mode of self-destruction (drugs, alcohol, hedonism) with another mode of self-destruction (suicide attacks)

well, i suppose that all depends on whether you think drink and drugs = hedonism, and whether pleasure-seeking = self-destruction. i'm no puritan, so i don't recognize this in my own use of alcohol. of course i *have* used it self-destructively, but that's my bidnizz.

k-punk is now saying something else, that in it's not cultural repulsion but the presence of western troops in the mid-east that is sole explanation. whatever. the explanation 'western society is decadent on booze and drugs' is shared by norman tebbit. minoritarian religious cults which justify mass murder worry me more than drug-addled youth.
 
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