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Thread: GRIME- breaking news, gossip, slander, lies etc

  1. #1411
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    Yes violent behaviour was already evident in Titch's life long before he was known as an MC. He was in jail for years before he came out around 2003 and began to take MCing seriously. Much like many other young people who have been in and out of jail and have made changes to their lives in order to take music seriously.

    A murder was not carried out because of a piece of music. It was carried out due to other incidents which happened way down a chain of events which was triggered by a remark made in a track. And if you read what I said, I clearly stated that many other innocuous things have also led to a series of events which have ended in the deaths of people involved.

    I have no idea why people are taking some sort of joy in twisting everything into some sort of smart arsed competition to score points as if it were a fucking election debate.

    Young people are dying regularly in Britain's major cities and it is nothing to do with music. It is a problem that needs to be addressed seriously.
    Last edited by Logan Sama; 10-11-2006 at 06:18 AM.
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  2. #1412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan Sama View Post

    A murder was not carried out because of a piece of music. It was carried out due to other incidents which happened way down a chain of events which was triggered by a remark made in a track. And if you read what I said, I clearly stated that many other innocuous things have also led to a series of events which have ended in the deaths of people involved.
    i would think most people on here know that violence happens in large cities every day and that people die over meangingless shit all the time... (tho usually this stuff involves younger kids... it's kinda depressing that 3 grown ass men got involved in beef with a 16 year old...). i think the issue is, how this will reflect on the average person's reflection on grime...

    not being british, i couldn't say... cause i know the british media is monstrous... i would think that in a month or two, no one outside of grime will remember who titch is... (steady b anyone?) it's goodz's career that will probably falter...

    lastly, this is the best book i've ever read on urban violence (tho the crux of the author's theory blames violence on slavery and the southern code of "honor" (dualing, etc...), so it doesn't really translate to the uk...)

  3. #1413
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    the main thing is that it's reductive and, honestly, quite fucking stupid to blame any form of music for any kind of behaviour. seriously, if music "makes" a listener behave in certain ways, i'd be running down the road outside of my moving car, showering people with homophobic abuse, while spazzed off my tits on cough syrup most days.

    needless to say, i do none of the above and disagree profoundly with many of the sentiments expressed in the music i listen to. a lot of people have very similar relationships with their cultural choices. music *does not* make people do anything. if you think that, you're heading into territory where it's perfectly legitimate to ban certain forms of expression for the benefit of wider society.

    this is crazy and dangerous. music reflects the lives of its creators and its target audience, so in the case of inner city musics like grime, the things being said won't always be nice or palatable, but that doesn't alter the fact that music is a constructive, safe, liberating outlet, not a catalyst of voilence and crime. lose sight of that and you've lost all connection to all understanding of the situation.

    i'd say that the main reason this particular case is provoking such a reaction is that it's so completely and totally outside the vast majority our experiences that we can't begin to understand how the hell it happened. we've not come up in a world where behavior like this is seen as acceptable, right or inevitable and, accordingly, solve our problems in different ways. no matter how much many of us love this music (this is debatable in some cases after the comments i've seen here), most, if not all, of us here will only ever be tourists in such lives (would you agree, logan?), be it either by listening to, or even direct involvement with this culture. to distance ourselves from this music, though, and stand in enlightened middle-class liberal judgement as soon as something bad happens is sheer hypocrisy, though, given the thrills we've all got from grime's toughness and grit.

    a better thing to do is to realise that shit is seriously fucked up in inner cities all over the world and unless you've lived that life or know people who have, you'll never understand how easy it is to get sucked into really destructive behaviour as a matter of course. it's a desperate, desparate waste, something needs to be done about it, and it's caused by many, many different things. music is not one of those cause, though, nor is the tertiary culture attached to any kind of artistic expression.

    the culture of disaffection, dislocation and abject fucking hopelessness that so many people grow up in needs to be examined here, not the culture of a music that comes from this enviroment - that's just totally asswards.

    creating an environment where this kind of thing doesn't happen and where people see their lives, and the lives of others, as something to be lived and cherished, rather than something disposable, takes a lot of work on any number of levels. it won't be easy, and in many cases won't be pretty, either, but it needs to start in schools, homes, be reinforced in communities and seriously funded and supported at local and national government level, otherwise we'll just see more and more of this tomorrow, next year and long after grime has been and gone.
    Last edited by stelfox; 10-11-2006 at 12:01 PM.

  4. #1414
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    Default there's a lot of good things being

    discussed which I could go into further but Sizzle come closest

    as far back as when I was in primary school...if your mother got gunned it was an armshouse straight up. the only things that have changed is that guns and shanks replaced fists and penknives

    in terms of the underlying mental and cultural power that surrounds and ultimately decides all this...even if an Asian person was involved I only feel comfortable discussing that further and in person preferably with someone with an African background

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  5. #1415
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    Default blah

    Just for the record, although I disagreed with a couple of points obviously, I don't think Ned's piece was misinformed or lazy, I think it was a good opinion piece.

  6. #1416
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    nor was he explicitly blaming grime for any of this.

  7. #1417
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    Quote Originally Posted by polz View Post
    "we would never do a thing like that, but these people can't help themselves". you are not helping people who are living in these circumstances and want to chance things.
    read it again, dude.
    neither i nor logan are saying anything of the sort.
    nobody is condoning what happened or making excuses.
    it's not discriminatory moral relativism to say that things are pretty fucked up in the inner cities, nor to recognise that society needs more than a bunch of hand-wringers saying how awful the situation is to put it right.
    Last edited by stelfox; 10-11-2006 at 02:46 PM.

  8. #1418
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    Quote Originally Posted by stelfox View Post
    the main thing is that it's reductive and, honestly, quite fucking stupid to blame any form of music for any kind of behaviour. seriously, if music "makes" a listener behave in certain ways, i'd be running down the road outside of my moving car, showering people with homophobic abuse, while spazzed off my tits on cough syrup most days.
    But the claim isn't that any music can, on its own, can turn a non-violent person into a violent one. The claim is that hearing aggressive music at a crowded rave can be one factor (one of many) in bringing to the surface tendencies that already existed. The same thing, perhaps, that happens in the mosh pit at a hardcore punk gig. Surely everyone here has had an intense emotional response to music at some point in their lives?

    That's not to say that violence is grime's fault, or to dispute that the problem in these people's lives that needs solving is not music but social disintegration. But if people are choosing grime as an arena in which to express their aggressive tendencies - as with 'Pow' - and the police are getting involved as a result, then grime surely has a problem.

    Maybe another analogy is football hooliganism. No one is saying that watching football makes you violent. But, if you look at certain football matches, a lot of acts of violence take place as a result that wouldn't have happened otherwise. So does football cause violence? Not in the sense that football is somehow blameworthy. But yes, maybe, in the sense that there is clearly such a thing as 'football violence'.

    Quote Originally Posted by stelfox View Post
    music *does not* make people do anything. if you think that, you're heading into territory where it's perfectly legitimate to ban certain forms of expression for the benefit of wider society.
    Not in the least. Please don't put me in that camp. There are countless things in our society that do incomparably greater damage than grime could ever be accused of, and, unlike grime, have no redeeming features - e.g. The Daily Mail. That doesn't for a moment suggest we have the right to ban them.
    Last edited by Ned; 10-11-2006 at 04:25 PM.

  9. #1419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ned View Post
    But the claim isn't that any music can, on its own, can turn a non-violent person into a violent one. The claim is that hearing aggressive music at a crowded rave can be one factor (one of many) in bringing to the surface tendencies that already existed. The same thing, perhaps, that happens in the mosh pit at a hardcore punk gig. Surely everyone here has had an intense emotional response to music at some point in their lives?
    i've always hated this argument, b/c i feel like for 99% of teenagers (myself back in the day included) "violent" music (whether h/c , metal, hip hop, grime, whatever) more often serves as a release valve for feelings of anger and frusteration, rather than an encouragement to act on them... i mean, listening to Black Flag or Suicidal Tendencies STOPPED me from wanting to go postal at school, just b/c i felt like someone else knew how i felt...

    as has been stated, the kids who shot up Colombine would have done so whether or not Marilyn Manson (or KMFDM or whatever they listened to..) had ever made a record...

    i think it's clear that the common sense answer is that troubled kids are drawn to aggressive music more so than aggresive music makes troubled kids...

  10. #1420
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    The guy dissed him on a tune, stuff went down, he got shot. In this case, the music was related to directly the outcome.

    The ideas involved with this have moved way beyond boring 80s ideas of whether music influences behaviour. What happens now is that people are talking directly about their problems with other people over music, and this in some cases leads to agression, it's just a fact, deal with it.

  11. #1421
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersloane View Post
    The guy dissed him on a tune, stuff went down, he got shot. In this case, the music was related to directly the outcome.

    The ideas involved with this have moved way beyond boring 80s ideas of whether music influences behaviour. What happens now is that people are talking directly about their problems with other people over music, and this in some cases leads to agression, it's just a fact, deal with it.
    oh, i've dealt w/ it...


    this shit has happened in america for a LONG time... "you fat motherfucker, i fucked your wife", etc etc etc... beef beef beef...

    the point is, whether you realize it or not, the music stuff is just a footnote to this murder. it could have been a basketball game, or a girl, or a pair of fucking shoes... the issue was "respect" and that issue has been played out in the streets long before grime ever existed...

    i am sure there alot of murders in england every month involving young people with the same socio-economic background as Titch... and if you looked at the reasons why things went down, they would be just as mindless as this... the only difference is, Titch has made some records... no one says "playing pick up basketball causes violence"... if you guys want to confuse the issue, that's yr deal...

  12. #1422
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    Quote Originally Posted by petergunn View Post
    the issue was "respect" and that issue has been played out in the streets long before grime ever existed...
    Respect as a cultural value within grime that many feel needs to be defended to the death makes grime a culture i would not value. The music as art which represents that culture and reinforces those values is not something i would promote.

    For all this I can see titch becoming a next level MC. Real hard bars from the inside causing a massive groundswell of underground support.

  13. #1423
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    "many feel needs to be defended to the death"

    'many'? evidence?

  14. #1424
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    Quote Originally Posted by the undisputed truth View Post
    Respect as a cultural value within grime that many feel needs to be defended to the death makes grime a culture i would not value. The music as art which represents that culture and reinforces those values is not something i would promote.

    For all this I can see titch becoming a next level MC. Real hard bars from the inside causing a massive groundswell of underground support.
    I don't think it's fair to say that culturally grime adheres to the ideology that respect should be defended to the death. The nature of gun crime today, which ultimately is what we're talking about, is not like that of organised crime. It's not even about respect half the time. More time you're looking at a mindset no longer sensitive to violence however bloody. It's spur of the moment action with little or no thought and often conducted either through fear or hype.

    As for Titch becoming a next level MC, I don't see that either. He hadn't done much while on remand and look at Shyne, it did nothing for him. If he does come round to it, regardless of whether he fired the fatal shot or not, I think people will be wary of supporting him to the extent they would have had he robbed a bank.

    If Holmes had been an MC and Titch the unknown producer it would be interesting to see how different reactions would be.

  15. #1425
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    Quote Originally Posted by mos dan View Post
    "many feel needs to be defended to the death"

    'many'? evidence?
    Ok so maybe it's presumptuous of me to lump grime in with gangsta rap and the continual gangbanging beef that feeds hiphop worldwide. I don't really make the distinction of grime being anything other than UK hiphop though. So with that in mind yes many crews do feel the need to protect their rep and cred by violence sometimes fatal. Or are all those lyrics about gun culture and slaying your opposition just posturing and lipservice ? Maybe it's a general youth thing but i just don't hear much of youth violence in anything other than hiphop and grime. Is that because the media don't highlight it ?

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