GRIME- breaking news, gossip, slander, lies etc

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Titch is not my friend.

I am not defending his actions.

I am trying to illustrate the fact that such things happen with regularity in London, Manchester and Birmingham these days. And be it someone trying to chat up someone else's girl, someone bumping someone for money, someone losing a bet over Pro Evo and refusing to pay it, or even a couple of lines in a record, given the right people and the right circumstances, it can escalate from nothing into deaths.

Music is not the cause of this sissue, it is merely an excuse to ignore the underlying problems with a generation of young people who are disconnected from the rest of society and it's moral values.
 

mos dan

fact music
Well done Memes on the reply piece - that is exactly how all this should work.

well quite - someone who knows what they're talking about writing about what they know about, without factual errors or lazy assumptions.

i'm astonished that some people still seem to think this kind of thing happens because of music.

is house music to blame when someone gets bottled at a house rave?
is marilyn manson's music responsible for columbine?
was rock 'n' roll to blame when teddy boys ripped the seats out of a cinema showing a rock n' roll film in 50s lewisham (i forget which one)?

you'd think journalists' ability to scrutinise events in context might have evolved in the last fifty years...
 

Ned

Ruby Tuesday
i'm astonished that some people still seem to think this kind of thing happens because of music.

If uplifting music can make people elated, and depressing music can make people sad, why is it so unthinkable that violent music can make people aggressive - or at the very least attract people with a predisposition to aggression, which is no less problematic in the long run? Clearly this can't account for murders, but can it account in part for e.g. people reportedly having punch-ups whenever Pow came on? I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but I don't see why it should be off limits for speculation in what is after all an opinion piece.
 
Last edited:

bun-u

Trumpet Police
I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but I don't see why it should be off limits for speculation in what is after all an opinion piece.

I mis-read that last bit as 'onion piece' and, for a split second, it all made sense.

Okay, if we were to accept for a moment that grime/video nasties/west coast hippy pop (in the case of charles manson & his followers) causes violence. What do you propose we do about it?
 

Jezmi

Olli Oliver Steichelsmein
Clearly this can't account for murders, but can it account in part for e.g. people reportedly having punch-ups whenever Pow came on?

Pow had a subliminal message that worked at 17000 Hz, only affecting grime yoots. If you lower the pitch and play it backwards, D Double tells you to punch the guy standing next to you.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Poor Ned.

Some people (kids especially) do take music too literally sometimes. And sound can really aggravate, an effect amplified in crowd situations. Ask William Burroughs or the CIA.
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
lol@music driving people to act in certain ways. haha

Music evokes reactions from people which are pre-existing. It does not cultivate new behaviour in people.

What you are suggesting is censure of stimulii to people who you believe do not posess the faculties to properly conduct themselves amongst others.

You know where that leads?
 
Music evokes reactions from people which are pre-existing. It does not cultivate new behaviour in people.

That sounds like something you made up

It implies titch was already a killer waiting for an excuse to murder and the music conveniently supplied it. Was he ?

I read gooodz, a 24 yr old kidnapped shah, a 16 yr old and held him captive in a car until he apologised saying he couldn't have no kid dissing him like that. A scenario which if true would probably explain why shah's crew went round to goodz mums house. I would also dispute the threat to the mother but i could see the threat relating to goodz being told to his mother that she might pass it on to goodz.

The upshot is it appears the culture condones tit for tat violence and beef through dissing. If one were to look for a first cause, I'd say if the culture/music didn't condone beef and people did just treat it as music then why be offended? I would take it as a compliment that someone went out of their way to diss me in a trak. To think they considered me worthy enough to waste time, effort, money and creativity in a tune is a compliment that i wouldn't repay in kind or in criminal behaviour.
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Yes violent behaviour was already evident in Titch's life long before he was known as an MC. He was in jail for years before he came out around 2003 and began to take MCing seriously. Much like many other young people who have been in and out of jail and have made changes to their lives in order to take music seriously.

A murder was not carried out because of a piece of music. It was carried out due to other incidents which happened way down a chain of events which was triggered by a remark made in a track. And if you read what I said, I clearly stated that many other innocuous things have also led to a series of events which have ended in the deaths of people involved.

I have no idea why people are taking some sort of joy in twisting everything into some sort of smart arsed competition to score points as if it were a fucking election debate.

Young people are dying regularly in Britain's major cities and it is nothing to do with music. It is a problem that needs to be addressed seriously.
 
Last edited:

petergunn

plywood violin
A murder was not carried out because of a piece of music. It was carried out due to other incidents which happened way down a chain of events which was triggered by a remark made in a track. And if you read what I said, I clearly stated that many other innocuous things have also led to a series of events which have ended in the deaths of people involved.

i would think most people on here know that violence happens in large cities every day and that people die over meangingless shit all the time... (tho usually this stuff involves younger kids... it's kinda depressing that 3 grown ass men got involved in beef with a 16 year old...). i think the issue is, how this will reflect on the average person's reflection on grime...

not being british, i couldn't say... cause i know the british media is monstrous... i would think that in a month or two, no one outside of grime will remember who titch is... (steady b anyone?) it's goodz's career that will probably falter...

lastly, this is the best book i've ever read on urban violence (tho the crux of the author's theory blames violence on slavery and the southern code of "honor" (dualing, etc...), so it doesn't really translate to the uk...)
0380728621.jpg
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
the main thing is that it's reductive and, honestly, quite fucking stupid to blame any form of music for any kind of behaviour. seriously, if music "makes" a listener behave in certain ways, i'd be running down the road outside of my moving car, showering people with homophobic abuse, while spazzed off my tits on cough syrup most days.

needless to say, i do none of the above and disagree profoundly with many of the sentiments expressed in the music i listen to. a lot of people have very similar relationships with their cultural choices. music *does not* make people do anything. if you think that, you're heading into territory where it's perfectly legitimate to ban certain forms of expression for the benefit of wider society.

this is crazy and dangerous. music reflects the lives of its creators and its target audience, so in the case of inner city musics like grime, the things being said won't always be nice or palatable, but that doesn't alter the fact that music is a constructive, safe, liberating outlet, not a catalyst of voilence and crime. lose sight of that and you've lost all connection to all understanding of the situation.

i'd say that the main reason this particular case is provoking such a reaction is that it's so completely and totally outside the vast majority our experiences that we can't begin to understand how the hell it happened. we've not come up in a world where behavior like this is seen as acceptable, right or inevitable and, accordingly, solve our problems in different ways. no matter how much many of us love this music (this is debatable in some cases after the comments i've seen here), most, if not all, of us here will only ever be tourists in such lives (would you agree, logan?), be it either by listening to, or even direct involvement with this culture. to distance ourselves from this music, though, and stand in enlightened middle-class liberal judgement as soon as something bad happens is sheer hypocrisy, though, given the thrills we've all got from grime's toughness and grit.

a better thing to do is to realise that shit is seriously fucked up in inner cities all over the world and unless you've lived that life or know people who have, you'll never understand how easy it is to get sucked into really destructive behaviour as a matter of course. it's a desperate, desparate waste, something needs to be done about it, and it's caused by many, many different things. music is not one of those cause, though, nor is the tertiary culture attached to any kind of artistic expression.

the culture of disaffection, dislocation and abject fucking hopelessness that so many people grow up in needs to be examined here, not the culture of a music that comes from this enviroment - that's just totally asswards.

creating an environment where this kind of thing doesn't happen and where people see their lives, and the lives of others, as something to be lived and cherished, rather than something disposable, takes a lot of work on any number of levels. it won't be easy, and in many cases won't be pretty, either, but it needs to start in schools, homes, be reinforced in communities and seriously funded and supported at local and national government level, otherwise we'll just see more and more of this tomorrow, next year and long after grime has been and gone.
 
Last edited:
there's a lot of good things being

discussed which I could go into further but Sizzle come closest

as far back as when I was in primary school...if your mother got gunned it was an armshouse straight up. the only things that have changed is that guns and shanks replaced fists and penknives

in terms of the underlying mental and cultural power that surrounds and ultimately decides all this...even if an Asian person was involved I only feel comfortable discussing that further and in person preferably with someone with an African background

God Bless yourselves people
 

Memes

Member
blah

Just for the record, although I disagreed with a couple of points obviously, I don't think Ned's piece was misinformed or lazy, I think it was a good opinion piece.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
"we would never do a thing like that, but these people can't help themselves". you are not helping people who are living in these circumstances and want to chance things.

read it again, dude.
neither i nor logan are saying anything of the sort.
nobody is condoning what happened or making excuses.
it's not discriminatory moral relativism to say that things are pretty fucked up in the inner cities, nor to recognise that society needs more than a bunch of hand-wringers saying how awful the situation is to put it right.
 
Last edited:

Ned

Ruby Tuesday
the main thing is that it's reductive and, honestly, quite fucking stupid to blame any form of music for any kind of behaviour. seriously, if music "makes" a listener behave in certain ways, i'd be running down the road outside of my moving car, showering people with homophobic abuse, while spazzed off my tits on cough syrup most days.

But the claim isn't that any music can, on its own, can turn a non-violent person into a violent one. The claim is that hearing aggressive music at a crowded rave can be one factor (one of many) in bringing to the surface tendencies that already existed. The same thing, perhaps, that happens in the mosh pit at a hardcore punk gig. Surely everyone here has had an intense emotional response to music at some point in their lives?

That's not to say that violence is grime's fault, or to dispute that the problem in these people's lives that needs solving is not music but social disintegration. But if people are choosing grime as an arena in which to express their aggressive tendencies - as with 'Pow' - and the police are getting involved as a result, then grime surely has a problem.

Maybe another analogy is football hooliganism. No one is saying that watching football makes you violent. But, if you look at certain football matches, a lot of acts of violence take place as a result that wouldn't have happened otherwise. So does football cause violence? Not in the sense that football is somehow blameworthy. But yes, maybe, in the sense that there is clearly such a thing as 'football violence'.

music *does not* make people do anything. if you think that, you're heading into territory where it's perfectly legitimate to ban certain forms of expression for the benefit of wider society.

Not in the least. Please don't put me in that camp. There are countless things in our society that do incomparably greater damage than grime could ever be accused of, and, unlike grime, have no redeeming features - e.g. The Daily Mail. That doesn't for a moment suggest we have the right to ban them.
 
Last edited:

petergunn

plywood violin
But the claim isn't that any music can, on its own, can turn a non-violent person into a violent one. The claim is that hearing aggressive music at a crowded rave can be one factor (one of many) in bringing to the surface tendencies that already existed. The same thing, perhaps, that happens in the mosh pit at a hardcore punk gig. Surely everyone here has had an intense emotional response to music at some point in their lives?

i've always hated this argument, b/c i feel like for 99% of teenagers (myself back in the day included) "violent" music (whether h/c , metal, hip hop, grime, whatever) more often serves as a release valve for feelings of anger and frusteration, rather than an encouragement to act on them... i mean, listening to Black Flag or Suicidal Tendencies STOPPED me from wanting to go postal at school, just b/c i felt like someone else knew how i felt...

as has been stated, the kids who shot up Colombine would have done so whether or not Marilyn Manson (or KMFDM or whatever they listened to..) had ever made a record...

i think it's clear that the common sense answer is that troubled kids are drawn to aggressive music more so than aggresive music makes troubled kids...
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
The guy dissed him on a tune, stuff went down, he got shot. In this case, the music was related to directly the outcome.

The ideas involved with this have moved way beyond boring 80s ideas of whether music influences behaviour. What happens now is that people are talking directly about their problems with other people over music, and this in some cases leads to agression, it's just a fact, deal with it.
 
Top