Too much music?

k-punk said:

Downloading makes your computer into the completist; as Zizek says of taped films, if the machine has them, you're relieved of the burden of having to watch them. Same with MP3s...

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Umm, right, so it's got nothing to do with the analogue/digital divide then? If "the machine has them", and this is what drives the completist impulse, doesn't the same apply to vinyl as much as tape?

And if money changes hands in the procurement of a digital download, does that make it more symbolic, and therefore more valid in some way?

I'd agree that P2P engenders a kind of completist fervour to begin with; but I could argue that that's merely a hangover from fetishism for the physical product

As for cover artwork, sleevenotes etc - I doubt they will disappear completely. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the physical commodity will die a complete death (tho I will concede that I think it's possible over several generations). But their secondary functions, particularly that of sleevenotes, are in some way replicated by browsing the archives of other P2P users, say, or following links that read sthg like "Customers who liked this also liked..."

A lot of my favourite ever finds online have been made by simply taking a punt on something I've found on the computer of someone who's just uploaded something from me. And sometimes that's led to interesting chat sessions with the original - or maybe previous is a better description - 'owner' (for want of a better word). And I'd say those memories are just as strong as the one where I found a mint copy of "I'm Still In Love With You" by Al Green at the Flohmarkt

I watched "High Fidelity" the other day, and was struck by how dated the setting seemed. And it definitely made me a bit sad. But crate digging is not necessarily superior; just different.

What I think we *can* say is that, quite generally, we're entering a period in which we're being confronted with the subjective and ephemeral nature of our own existence more than ever before. That's uncomfortable for some people, and the battle lines are very definitely being drawn all around the world.

this is a great line, in general, and for those who make music a primary focus in their lives, this is really pertinent.

blunt said:

Umm, right, so it's got nothing to do with the analogue/digital divide then? If "the machine has them", and this is what drives the completist impulse, doesn't the same apply to vinyl as much as tape?

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Well, no, because you errrrr can't record onto vinyl... point would be that you can record a film without watching it, that's sort of possible with an LP onto cassette tape but not as likely as downloading an MP3 without ever listening to it ... the issue is how easy it is to acquire the thing without actually listening/ watching it.. very easy with downloading an MP3, a bit more involved with vinyl, where you actually have to go into a shop and buy it etc..

And if money changes hands in the procurement of a digital download, does that make it more symbolic, and therefore more valid in some way?

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It's not that it is more 'valid' in some absolute way; btu surely it's an obvious point that ppl value things because they pay for them, and not (just) the other way round....

I'd agree that P2P engenders a kind of completist fervour to begin with; but I could argue that that's merely a hangover from fetishism for the physical product

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On what grounds, tho? Why would physical objects lend themselves to completism more than digital code?

As for cover artwork, sleevenotes etc - I doubt they will disappear completely. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the physical commodity will die a complete death (tho I will concede that I think it's possible over several generations). But their secondary functions, particularly that of sleevenotes, are in some way replicated by browsing the archives of other P2P users, say, or following links that read sthg like "Customers who liked this also liked..."

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Surely sleevenotes are not just - if they are in any way interesting - merely consumer recommendations are they? But sleevenotes aren't really the issue; I can't think of many albums in my collection that have them, unless Mark E Smith's epigram-scrawls count. Cover art had already been damaged by the arrival of CD, can't really see it surviving much in the age of ubiquitious downloading - that's another dimension of art, i.e. non-utile abstraction sheered off by downloading's brutally functional logic. It's like a whole phase space for sonic fiction has been eliminated...

A lot of my favourite ever finds online have been made by simply taking a punt on something I've found on the computer of someone who's just uploaded something from me. And sometimes that's led to interesting chat sessions with the original - or maybe previous is a better description - 'owner' (for want of a better word). And I'd say those memories are just as strong as the one where I found a mint copy of "I'm Still In Love With You" by Al Green at the Flohmarkt

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Really? I find downloading to be a pretty much undifferentiated data-acquisition exercise... more broadly, I see nothing to celebrate about downloading culture and generalized availability of the whole history of pop ...on the contrary, I'm convinced that part of the reason that Pop has gone into decline is the palpable weight of its own history, now pressing in from all sides...

head said:

What I think we *can* say is that, quite generally, we're entering a period in which we're being confronted with the subjective and ephemeral nature of our own existence more than ever before. That's uncomfortable for some people, and the battle lines are very definitely being drawn all around the world.

this is a great line, in general, and for those who make music a primary focus in their lives, this is really pertinent.

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What, we're being confronted with the ephemeral nature of our own existence more than in WW1 or the year after, when millions died in the Spanish Flu? Or in WW2? Surely ephemerality is the one thing we're NOT faced with now... our problem is that everything is recorded and filed, forever available. People might be famous for fifteen minutes, but those fifteen minutes will be shown on a cable channel somewhere in perpetuity, or recalled on I Heart 2005....

k-punk said:

1: The fact that no money's involved makes you value the music less. As soon as something costs money it gains in 'symbolic' value. You don't pay for things because they have intrinsic value; on the contrary, because things cost money, they acquire a certain value.

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thats a bit too bourgeois for me. lots of things can confer value on music, whether its in digital format or not. scarcity for one. there are old skool jungle tunes so rare that they are practically impossible to get hold of in any format. i'd love to get hold of mp3s of those tunes. i would value them greatly.

for me a lot of the value of music is bound up in being able to share it, play people things they haven't heard. anything that makes that easier transcends technology and brings people closer together. thats a good thing in my book.

k-punk said:

What, we're being confronted with the ephemeral nature of our own existence more than in WW1 or the year after, when millions died in the Spanish Flu? Or in WW2? Surely ephemerality is the one thing we're NOT faced with now... our problem is that everything is recorded and filed, forever available. People might be famous for fifteen minutes, but those fifteen minutes will be shown on a cable channel somewhere in perpetuity, or recalled on I Heart 2005....

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as far as ephemeral being a short-lived thing, and in using it along with subjective to describe our lives, yes i do think it's very different from the ephemeral nature of our own existence more than in WW1 or the year after, when millions died in the Spanish Flu. i don't think comparing how recent(past couple of decades) developments in technology have influenced the amount and range of music being produced with how many people died in past conflicts is productive, or pertinent even.

the sheer amount of music, books, art and the rest being produced today, compared to ten years ago, compared to thirty years ago, technology, especially communications technology, have created a telescopic explosion of product/information/art however you'd like to view it. in music specifically, hearing music from all over the globe, and in such detail as the various scenes within any one country, is something that was previously impossible to do. when scenes within a country effect evolution in each others' sounds, and then have effected the sounds in other countries, which have in turn influenced others - everything is subjective, everything is changing. 2-step came and went like that ::snap:: how long will grime last? who knows? there are going to have to be more MTV's than people can watch for there to be a 15 minute of fame recording for everyone that has put out a track this year. five years from now, there likely won't be enough to cover the artists putting out tracks within one month's time. and i'm only thinking of one country for that example.

captain easychord said:

MP3's definitely sound like shit, but every DJ i know is switching to them.

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I'm switching back to vinyl! Although not actually a proper dj, I've managed to blag another guest spot in Bristol next week. I intend to start my set with 20-30 mins of classic 89-91 bleep 'n' bass. In preparation I've actually been tracking down a couple of original 12" pressings, cos I just don't trust my digital versions to replicate the sound properly. As Warp's Rob beckett explained in Energy Flash, concerning the techniques involved in getting the sub bass pressure levels: "A lot of it was in the (lacquer) cut." No digital copy - CD or otherwise - is gonna give a bass response that the original 12" provides.

MP3s still have their uses, but if you're serious about sound...you know what you gotta do.

I miss not at all buying something on impulse, getting home and going..."fuuuuck! this is awful!" and getting the feeling that the entire industry, from band to label to press to store, had colluded to hoodwink me into buying some piece of shit. Curiosity had a steep price. Surely some share in the pleasure at seeing the "old ways" come tumbling down, at seeing the constant expansion suddenly backfire

I do relish the fact that much music now has to live or die, stand or fall, be legible or not, according to sound, rather than be variously "captioned" or excused by its packaging

I don't know exactly how these thoughts pertain to proliferation, except to say that one's got to make the same decisions as one always has about music, just without the cherished fiction of complete "coverage"--a mirage in any circumstances

head said:

as far as ephemeral being a short-lived thing, and in using it along with subjective to describe our lives, yes i do think it's very different from the ephemeral nature of our own existence more than in WW1 or the year after, when millions died in the Spanish Flu. i don't think comparing how recent(past couple of decades) developments in technology have influenced the amount and range of music being produced with how many people died in past conflicts is productive, or pertinent even.

the sheer amount of music, books, art and the rest being produced today, compared to ten years ago, compared to thirty years ago, technology, especially communications technology, have created a telescopic explosion of product/information/art however you'd like to view it. in music specifically, hearing music from all over the globe, and in such detail as the various scenes within any one country, is something that was previously impossible to do. when scenes within a country effect evolution in each others' sounds, and then have effected the sounds in other countries, which have in turn influenced others - everything is subjective, everything is changing. 2-step came and went like that ::snap:: how long will grime last? who knows? there are going to have to be more MTV's than people can watch for there to be a 15 minute of fame recording for everyone that has put out a track this year. five years from now, there likely won't be enough to cover the artists putting out tracks within one month's time. and i'm only thinking of one country for that example.

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all of which shows that culture is more ephemeral, existence less so...

bassnation said:

thats a bit too bourgeois for me.

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Are you joking? The bourgeoisie are the biggest freeloaders ever, they never pay for anything

That said there's surely something to be said for recordings as objects, even beyond the sonics. As Adorno implied, they're anthropomorphic "analogs," images of people--as such they can "age" and "live" in a way dematerialized digital info can't.

This is one way mass-reproduced objects gain "aura" through the back door. It's hard to give that up that particular "fix" once one's felt it, though one can understand why it just doesn't pertain for many, for whom music is a prosthetic accoutrement rather than this pseudo-subjective, anthropomorphic thing, with its own unique "identity"

I don't disagree with yr points about downloading Mark, but I think it just renders more visible what was already an underlying factor in music appreciation. Simon's article on his blog I think demonstrates how the same impulses are created and satisfied in an analogue environment: buying and taping things "just in case" and not really listening to them is as much an example of what Zizek was talking about as downloading, if perhaps more time-consuming and limited in scope. Perhaps the tv equiv. of downloading is digital cable, DVD burners etc. My dad has always taped TV shows compulsively; he got a DVD burner and adores it for allowing the infinite expansion of his pre-existing compulsion.

Likewise, for those of us in music journalism, the CD promo suffers from the same lack of conferred value as the download (in fact I'm much more likely to leave a promo sitting on my shelf unlistened to than a download) - although interestingly I find that a lot of this depends on whether the promo <i>looks</i> like a promo or could pass for a purchasable CD - and I think trawling through second hand CD stores for cheap bargains is yet another example of that desire to get something for as close to nothing as possible... A ritual so formalised and half-conscious for me now that I would have <i>no hope</i> of remembering where I bought anything.

In this sense I think downloading is perhaps best understood as the literalisation and formalisation of a pre-existing increasing tendency in our patterns of music consumption: technology serving our neuroses.

Thinking about my dad reminds me that what Zizek is talking about here is not a universally standard syndrome: it's very dependent on how we personally structure our enjoyment. It would never occur to me to tape something on TV unless I planned to watch it almost as soon as I got home; likewise my dad knows how to download music but wouldn't do so unless he wanted something for a very specific purpose. The completist impulse just isn't there for certain parts of digital culture (just because we <i>can</i> be completists of a certain type doesn't mean we will). I suspect this means... not that we preserve some non-fetishistic autonomy, but that capital doesn't require our enjoyment to be standardised in order to make use of it (this, of course, is one of the big lessons for people who conflate Capital with the Culture Industry - the evil genius of capitalism is precisely its refusal to be limited to the culture industry, its recognition that it <i>does</i> have to cater to difference in order to dominate the field; Capital is not just the major labels but the totality of the major labels and all the boutique/independent alternatives).

In Zizek's terms, we all have a Big Other who we are trying to please with our enjoyment (some sort of symbolic guarantee that we have been correct in our chocies) and it's really for this "Big Other" that we record things we may not watch/listen to. The completist side of this desire-to-please is like the pointy end of our enjoyment, the component that structures or hegemonizes the rest and simultaneously "sticks out" as a component of our identity (for me this is an engagement with music; for my father it's an engagement with TV/film).

Tim F said:

Thinking about my dad reminds me that what Zizek is talking about here is not a universally standard syndrome: it's very dependent on how we personally structure our enjoyment. It would never occur to me to tape something on TV unless I planned to watch it almost as soon as I got home; likewise my dad knows how to download music but wouldn't do so unless he wanted something for a very specific purpose. .

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Wow, I bet you're the sort of person who turns off TV after they've finished watching the programme they sat down to watch too! As soon as something is taped, I find it almost impossible to find the energy to watch it (unless it is something ephemeral or trashy like Big Brother which I simply have to see that minute)

But, yes, it's not just to do with digital culture (I don't think I set special store by this distinction any way in this context, but, to get a little Deleuzian, an acceleration can also be a change in kind, an intensive threshold shift) or downloading specifically. I'm also much less likely to watch a DVD once I've bought it... even if I like the DVD... Once it is safely at home, there's no need to actually watch it...

At the same time, though, there is that phenonenom of the unwittingly acquired MP3... a phenomenon that is almost unthinkable when it comes to CDs or vinyl, at least for me.... and it doesn't matter how many times I root through second hand shops, I'll always remember exactly where I bought most CDs and books from...

I think letting go of anxiety about being on top of things is a good way to relax. You know, that concern about missing out on something, whether it be a great bit of music, or a crucial link that helps you understand some other bit of music.

Really, if those things come true, it doesn't matter. Well, to a "punter".

Not that I'm good at taking my own advice, but I try. It has been over a month since I bought a CD or record, and I think that is honestly the first time I've done that in .. maybe 10 years?? Mind you, I got given one on Sunday.

"Wow, I bet you're the sort of person who turns off TV after they've finished watching the programme they sat down to watch too!"

Mostly! But my point wasn't that i can withstand TV's evil influence and isn't that great; rather, that these different tendencies are different socio-technological manifestations of patterns of behaviour which can rise in a variety of circumstances and contexts. I think it's a reductive approach to assume that this sort of digital ennui we're talking about is an example of how "technology rules our lives" (not that this is what you're saying mark); really what technology is doing is making it easier to give in to our collective everyday fantasies (e.g. the idea that this DVD will serve some mystical purpose sitting on my shelf unwatched) - it's a form of liberation of the "be careful what you wish for" variety obv...

"But, yes, it's not just to do with digital culture (I don't think I set special store by this distinction any way in this context, but, to get a little Deleuzian, an acceleration can also be a change in kind, an intensive threshold shift) or downloading specifically."

Actually I myself was thinking about Zizek's idea (since you raised him) of form vs content and stages of development - eg. analogue taping was really the content of digital downloading culture in the form of pre-digital analogue culture: the move to DVD-Rs and filesharing is simply the snakeskin-shedding exercise of throwing off the old form to match the change in content. In this sense tapes (of both varieties) are the "vanishing mediator" of between the pre-digital and digital world.

michael said:

I think letting go of anxiety about being on top of things is a good way to relax. You know, that concern about missing out on something, whether it be a great bit of music, or a crucial link that helps you understand some other bit of music.

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I totally agree with that. We've always been missing out on something, but we're being confronted by the reality of that fact more than ever.

WOEBOT said:

Amusing how so many reactions (including my own) have been to proclaim their narrow-mindedness.

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That's cos it's the only reasonable response to have: to concede the limits of your own abilities

k-punk said:

... the issue is how easy it is to acquire the thing without actually listening/ watching it..

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The shuffle function is a really good way of getting around this. It nearly always throws up some hidden gem that I'd forgotten about; or maybe even not listened to properly in the first place.

k-punk said:

It's not that it is more 'valid' in some absolute way; but surely it's an obvious point that ppl value things because they pay for them, and not (just) the other way round....

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I don't find that obvious at all - if for no other reason than a gift is often valued more than a purchase made by one's self.

k-punk said:

On what grounds, tho? Why would physical objects lend themselves to completism more than digital code?

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On the grounds that completist fervour is, I think, for the most part bound up with notions of 'ownership'; and it's easier to talk about ownership of a physical object. Indeed, I'm not sure to what degree one can talk about 'owning' a digital download at all.

k-punk said:

Really? I find downloading to be a pretty much undifferentiated data-acquisition exercise...

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Well that much is fairly obvious, if I may say What I'm saying is that I don't. Really.

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On a slightly separate point, I'd just like to add a small disclaimer - I tend to use P2P as a means of *discovering* new music. If I like it, I'll then go and by it. Like Juliand, I've got sick and tired of buying stuff only to find it's cack.

And yes, by 'it' I mean the actual, physical product, not the legal download; because at heart I am a sucker for the sleeve art and everything that goes with owning the physical item, be it CD or vinyl.

But I also find my behaviour - in principle, at least - quite quaint and outdated. Basically, I'm a dinosaur. A happy dinosaur, but a dinosaur nonetheless

Tim F said:

"Wow, I bet you're the sort of person who turns off TV after they've finished watching the programme they sat down to watch too!"

Mostly! But my point wasn't that i can withstand TV's evil influence and isn't that great

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No, I know, I was only teasing...

"But, yes, it's not just to do with digital culture (I don't think I set special store by this distinction any way in this context, but, to get a little Deleuzian, an acceleration can also be a change in kind, an intensive threshold shift) or downloading specifically."

Actually I myself was thinking about Zizek's idea (since you raised him) of form vs content and stages of development - eg. analogue taping was really the content of digital downloading culture in the form of pre-digital analogue culture: the move to DVD-Rs and filesharing is simply the snakeskin-shedding exercise of throwing off the old form to match the change in content. In this sense tapes (of both varieties) are the "vanishing mediator" of between the pre-digital and digital world.

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Yes, but something unanticipated happens when the form matches the content - inexplicably the content turns to shit! Plus P2P is on such a vast scale compared to home taping really... the fact you could only tape one album at a time, in real time; restrictions of locality; all of this falls away...

but tapes as vanishing mediators yes.... mention C90s at our college and the students look at you askance... what are they?