prehistory/early civilization/mythology

four_five_one

Infinition
I think this is begging the question a bit, though. Why would there be an assumption that there are "male" and "female" traits, or indeed differentiated gender roles generally, of not for some degree of inborn psychological (and therefore neurological/endocrinological) differences between men and women? I mean, human brains, or at any rate pre-human mammalian brains, have existed for millions of years before the advent of any human culture. Has there ever been a society that does not distinguish, in some way or another, between gender roles?

I have a friend (who in other ways is a good Marxist) that keeps insisting to me that women are fundamentally different, and attributes to them some sort of mystical feminine 'intuition'... it's weird because he always quotes Deleuze at me: 'We don't know what a body can do' and then says stuff like that about women. It really annoys me. My point is usually the same; there are some obvious physical differences - and the major difference is obviously reproductive - but as for any differences in thought patterns, or a female subjectivity radically different from males, we simply don't know, because everything is social. As soon as you're born, there is a defined role that you're scripted towards playing out... who's to say this isn't the main difference that makes a difference as opposed to something biologically intrinsic to the female?

I also usually point out that there are often greater differences between two different men than there are between a given male and female. But then he tells me to read Schopenhauer... like a book written two hundred years ago will prove something!

What about if a guy is on a high estrogen diet? Does he become female if the mode of his thinking changes?

Also another friend that wants to become a transsexual, who keeps insisting to me that he identifies with women more than men, i.e. he thinks he thinks more like a female than a male. And I keep insisting that he can't know if he thinks like a woman, because I'm convinced there's no particular way that women think. Or if there is, how can he know it? How can a woman know if she thinks like other women?

He said that he saw femininity as a mask (of subjectivity) that he could slip on in order to forge a new identity. I've insisted that it might be a new identity, but it won't be a feminine one. The transsexual is a reification of an essentialist notion of femininity as a set of bodily signifiers/codes. She can only be a simulacrum. Hypersignification is the common bodily mode of the transgender, imitation is what it consistently states... (some gay men too).

I'm gradually talking him out of it.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I have a friend (who in other ways is a good Marxist) that keeps insisting to me that women are fundamentally different, and attributes to them some sort of mystical feminine 'intuition'... it's weird because he always quotes Deleuze at me: 'We don't know what a body can do' and then says stuff like that about women. It really annoys me. My point is usually the same; there are some obvious physical differences - and the major difference is obviously reproductive - but as for any differences in thought patterns, or a female subjectivity radically different from males, we simply don't know, because everything is social. As soon as you're born, there is a defined role that you're scripted towards playing out... who's to say this isn't the main difference that makes a difference as opposed to something biologically intrinsic to the female?

I also usually point out that there are often greater differences between two different men than there are between a given male and female. But then he tells me to read Schopenhauer... like a book written two hundred years ago will prove something!

What about if a guy is on a high estrogen diet? Does he become female if the mode of his thinking changes?

Also another friend that wants to become a transsexual, who keeps insisting to me that he identifies with women more than men, i.e. he thinks he thinks more like a female than a male. And I keep insisting that he can't know if he thinks like a woman, because I'm convinced there's no particular way that women think. Or if there is, how can he know it? How can a woman know if she thinks like other women?

He said that he saw femininity as a mask (of subjectivity) that he could slip on in order to forge a new identity. I've insisted that it might be a new identity, but it won't be a feminine one. The transsexual is a reification of an essentialist notion of femininity as a set of bodily signifiers/codes. She can only be a simulacrum. Hypersignification is the common bodily mode of the transgender, imitation is what it consistently states... (some gay men too).

I'm gradually talking him out of it.

For a whole bunch of reasons, I'm no fan of gender reassignment surgery, and I'm skeptical when it comes to hasty diagnoses of gender dysphoria. But as far as gender identity is concerned--who cares whether your friend decides to gender "himself" female, so long as he doesn't make serious, risky medical decisions that he can't reverse? We're all performing gender, to one extent or another.

Just because your friend was born with a penis doesn't mean that he must identify with males or masculinity as this is defined by our culture, or in others, does it? I mean, simply having a penis doesn't make him a man. I think he should do whatever he wants to do. But he should also be made aware of how wrong gender reassignment can go, how expensive it is, and how the data suggests that reassignment is no simple cure for gender dysphoria.

Transsexuality isn't a reification of essentialism, it's a careful dissection of it. It's a reification of gender constructivism. The idea is that gender and biological sex are unrelated phenomena, and that anyone can perform or identify with any gender regardless of biological sex. Current medical technologies make it possible to change the body to match these identifications.

Edit: Also, what makes you think that taking estrogen is going to change the mode of a male's thinking? Just curious...
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Needless to say, there is nothing in Deleuze that suggests gender or sex essentialism, so I have no idea where the hell your first friend is getting this stuff...
 

four_five_one

Infinition
I'm not against it in general at all, of course. I just think he's doing for all the wrong reasons. Contrary to what you said: it's precisely because he believes in this fantasy of masculinity and femininity that he wants to get the surgery. He's got these fixed notions of 'girlyness'... He's totally bought into the stereotypical submissive patriarchal view of femininity. I think it's no more than a pornographic invention... one that we should be totally against, not changing ourselves physically to fit within it.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Just because your friend was born with a penis doesn't mean that he must identify with males or masculinity as this is defined by our culture, or in others, does it? I mean, simply having a penis doesn't make him a man. I think he should do whatever he wants to do. But he should also be made aware of how wrong gender reassignment can go, how expensive it is, and how the data suggests that reassignment is no simple cure for gender dysphoria.

So my date said, as we lay in bed afterwards: "You can call me a woman, or you can call me a man. Just call me."
 

four_five_one

Infinition
Needless to say, there is nothing in Deleuze that suggests gender or sex essentialism, so I have no idea where the hell your first friend is getting this stuff...

I know. I dunno why he keeps saying it. He thinks it proves his point in some way... then agrees with me that it's exactly the converse of what he thinks it might mean. Then we get drunk again and the whole argument is repeated.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I'm not against it in general at all, of course. I just think he's doing for all the wrong reasons. Contrary to what you said: it's precisely because he believes in this fantasy of masculinity and femininity that he wants to get the surgery. He's got these fixed notions of 'girlyness'... He's totally bought into the stereotypical submissive patriarchal view of femininity. I think it's no more than a pornographic invention... one that we should be totally against, not changing ourselves physically to fit within it.

It's a tough subject. I question why anyone would want to live like that--he must know what kind of torture he'd be opening himself up to.

If I were him I'd start slow. Clubs first. Then try transitioning to transgender, and then I'd try coming out as a pre-op transsexual before I even consider the surgery.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Sounds to me that he's not "girly", he's a submissive. Two different issues right there.

I'm not sure if porn invents things so much as it parasitically lives on and amplifies things that already exist in culture.
 

four_five_one

Infinition
If I were him I'd start slow. Clubs first. Then try transitioning to transgender, and then I'd try coming out as a pre-op transsexual before I even consider the surgery.

That's pretty much what he's doing. He's already wearing a dress and sleeping with men and stuff (he was fully heterosexual before). I understand it's difficult to know where your 'true desire' lies... how do you find a way out of the circle of reflexivity?

In the last email he said: "I mean do I really want to be this chick or is it simply that because she's sexy and I think that's cool I want to be her? cuz its my heterosex that thinks she's sexy"
 

four_five_one

Infinition
Edit: Also, what makes you think that taking estrogen is going to change the mode of a male's thinking? Just curious...

Oh. The same friend who wants the surgery was on some really weird high estrogen diet for a while thinking it'd change the way he thinks... he thinks he was a better person while he was on it, but he really tried it because he thought it'd help him to crack the code of 'gayness'. It didn't. This was before the transsexual tip.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Oh. The same friend who wants the surgery was on some really weird high estrogen diet for a while thinking it'd change the way he thinks... he thinks he was a better person while he was on it, but he really tried it because he thought it'd help him to crack the code of 'gayness'. It didn't. This was before the transsexual tip.

O Lord.

four_five_one said:
That's pretty much what he's doing. He's already wearing a dress and sleeping with men and stuff (he was fully heterosexual before). I understand it's difficult to know where your 'true desire' lies... how do you find a way out of the circle of reflexivity?

In the last email he said: "I mean do I really want to be this chick or is it simply that because she's sexy and I think that's cool I want to be her? cuz its my heterosex that thinks she's sexy"

He's a heterosexual bottom who is confused about his feelings. He doesn't want to be a woman, he wants to be submissive, and he wants to be in thrall to a female dom.

That's my best guess.

That'll be $150.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Male submissives don't want to be "feminine" in terms of sex essentialism, although they may have no other words to describe their desires because our culture has essentialized submission as a "feminine" desire. So often part of a male sub's ritual submission will involve "sissification", but it's not actually about the being female part, it's about the submission part.

It's clear this friend of yours is sexually attracted to women physically. And this is causing him even more confusion, because it causes him to fetishize and essentialize the "femininity" of submission even further. So he thinks he can't be truly submissively hot unless he has a vagina. Bad idea.

I think his best bet would be to see a dominatrix and do some x-dressing (Edit: and maybe some strap-on play) with them.

Really not a big deal. A lot cheaper than surgery.
 
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