Dylan: I just don't get it, and I never will
- Thread starter k-punk
- Start date
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
blissblogger said:
Completely disagree with the first bit of that. When the beat comes in in 'LaRS', it's one of the few rock moments that just brings me out in a chill. Like the equivalent part in 'Gimme Shelter'.
As for the sympathy with the student in Don't Look Back, agree totally - Dylan seems like an absolute wretch of a person.
Overrated he may be, but not as much as Brian Wilson, most of whose stuff bores the tits off me.
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
I can take Dylan or leave him, really like a few singles, would probably have enjoyed the docu after a good smoke, but...
... me and the wife have been looking at all this deification of Dylan and find it just a total turn off. I mean, in many ways the best thing about Dylan is that Hendrix made some of his tunes sound good.
What was worst was seeing the bumfluffed student prick who is now apparently the editor of Q say that Dylan's music was the most important musical event of the last 50 years. Oh, do leave off.*
Mind you, I think the Velvet Underground were similarly over-rated.
* For your information, LFO Demon's Rave For Communism is one of the three or four most important recordings of the last fifty years...
... me and the wife have been looking at all this deification of Dylan and find it just a total turn off. I mean, in many ways the best thing about Dylan is that Hendrix made some of his tunes sound good.
What was worst was seeing the bumfluffed student prick who is now apparently the editor of Q say that Dylan's music was the most important musical event of the last 50 years. Oh, do leave off.*
Mind you, I think the Velvet Underground were similarly over-rated.
* For your information, LFO Demon's Rave For Communism is one of the three or four most important recordings of the last fifty years...
i don't really pay attention to lyrics- so the genius of Dylan as a poet has always eluded me
the thing that "clicked" for me was the Pat Garrett and Billy The Kid soundtrack- the instrumentals as much as the songs. Blood on The Tracks clicked next- but i still have been unable to get into the early Dylan, or any Dylan other than those two albums
maybe we should bring this thread back:
http://70.85.173.24/showthread.php?t=618
the thing that "clicked" for me was the Pat Garrett and Billy The Kid soundtrack- the instrumentals as much as the songs. Blood on The Tracks clicked next- but i still have been unable to get into the early Dylan, or any Dylan other than those two albums
maybe we should bring this thread back:
http://70.85.173.24/showthread.php?t=618
Gabba Flamenco Crossover
High Sierra Skullfuck
I really got into him through that documentary, i thought it was great. I never liked the records much. They dont work as pop music, and they dont give a sense of what he was all about at the time either.
Wierd artist, totally unique... i think you have to approach it like a happening or something, if you werent there you'll never really understand what it was all about. The records just seem like detrius left over from the main event, which was his big confrontational thing with his audience.
A beautiful piece of american history but it s got absolutely nothing to do with modern music or culture in my opinion.
Quite sad to comtemplate a time when a whole generation could get so worked up about music (even not very good music).
Wierd artist, totally unique... i think you have to approach it like a happening or something, if you werent there you'll never really understand what it was all about. The records just seem like detrius left over from the main event, which was his big confrontational thing with his audience.
A beautiful piece of american history but it s got absolutely nothing to do with modern music or culture in my opinion.
Quite sad to comtemplate a time when a whole generation could get so worked up about music (even not very good music).
blissblogger
Well-known member
Gabba Flamenco Crossover said:
i like this idea -- yeah it's something to read about or watch about.... the records only work with this intensive contextualisation
has anyone ever made a biopic of dylan?
watching the Scorsese doc did give me another reason to abhor dylan though
MAN'S A RECORD THIEF!!!!!!!
bassnation
the abyss
2stepfan said:
lol, you keep on teasing us with this teensy morsel of hyperbole.
wheres your notes on your radio show then meme?
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
I'm trying to initiate the historification process...bassnation said:
Overwhelmed with work right now (and I'm not actually being paid for it). Did you get the show?bassnation said:
Ness Rowlah
Norwegian Wood
all this attention to Dylan is sickening, and to make it worse in ten years time we might read about U2 and in twenty years about Coldplay the same way ...
some paper wrote that you cannot pidgeonhole Dylan - well let me try:
squeaky-voiced overrated troubadour.
and the cultural shock when he went "electric" is often described such that you would have thought the man invented rock. I bet some people believe he might have done, just like they think Bowie invented electronic music.
I am 95% with K-Punk on this one - I just don't get it (Dylan featured in my "anti-canon" list). He has written some good songs, but the times I listen and like it it is normally someone else than Zimmerman singing -
ie Hendrix, XTC or even Magnet/Gemma Hayes doing "Lay Lady Lay".
I simply wasn't made for Dylan; Townes Van Zandt is my man. End of story.
some paper wrote that you cannot pidgeonhole Dylan - well let me try:
squeaky-voiced overrated troubadour.
and the cultural shock when he went "electric" is often described such that you would have thought the man invented rock. I bet some people believe he might have done, just like they think Bowie invented electronic music.
I am 95% with K-Punk on this one - I just don't get it (Dylan featured in my "anti-canon" list). He has written some good songs, but the times I listen and like it it is normally someone else than Zimmerman singing -
ie Hendrix, XTC or even Magnet/Gemma Hayes doing "Lay Lady Lay".
I simply wasn't made for Dylan; Townes Van Zandt is my man. End of story.
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<i>give or take the odd amazing line the lyrics seem like gibberish to me</i>
I'm sorry, but this is just rubbish. It would be truer to say the odd line or verse is gibberish; sometimes his more surrealist lyrics conjure brilliant imagery, sometimes they just don't mean anything. But that's only one phase of Dylan's lyrics anyway, and a very short one he didn't really do the surrealist thing much after Blonde on Blonde (sadly: his fusion of weird old American folk music and the French Symbolist tradition is what makes him truly original as a lyric writer). It's not that hard to understand most of his words without resorting to over-interpretation.
As regards what's behind his reemergence: the real story is that Dylan has managed his own legacy brilliantly. He's done all the right things: released a great album about death, curated a steady stream of excellent, previously unreleased music from all phases of his career, written a great book about his life, overseen documentaries by Great American Directors.
And since he is actually a great artist, people are ready to lap it all up. No convoluted anti-American theories necessary.
I'm sorry, but this is just rubbish. It would be truer to say the odd line or verse is gibberish; sometimes his more surrealist lyrics conjure brilliant imagery, sometimes they just don't mean anything. But that's only one phase of Dylan's lyrics anyway, and a very short one he didn't really do the surrealist thing much after Blonde on Blonde (sadly: his fusion of weird old American folk music and the French Symbolist tradition is what makes him truly original as a lyric writer). It's not that hard to understand most of his words without resorting to over-interpretation.
As regards what's behind his reemergence: the real story is that Dylan has managed his own legacy brilliantly. He's done all the right things: released a great album about death, curated a steady stream of excellent, previously unreleased music from all phases of his career, written a great book about his life, overseen documentaries by Great American Directors.
And since he is actually a great artist, people are ready to lap it all up. No convoluted anti-American theories necessary.
bassnation
the abyss
2stepfan said:
yeah, very impressed. is the track about 51 mins in your remix of prince tubby? lfo demon and bong ra are always wicked. also loving those tracks right at the end of the mix on treehouse - the mournful tone reminds me of beenie man "who am i". pity you two didn't talk though, would have found it interesting to hear some background about all these tracks.
joeschmo said:
Too right. Now lets start the Morrissey/MBV cultural osmosis, oops! its already happeneing, what with ColdPlay and Sigur Ros and Franz Ferdinand being the BIGGEST non-black bands on the planet! C/w Nick Cave, who we know is just a hack. The fact that The Stones would never have existed w/o 'AMERICAN' muzak, so lets 'out', the hidden agendas betwixt the lines.
The thing that shits me about this board is the ignorance of the fact that the UK's biggest 'contribution' to popular music was the invention of heavy metal and glam thru the late 60s and early70s. Really all the stuff about vikings and wizards and pansies is oh-so British and unique to the Isles. Get over it lads and accept according to yr 'arguements' and 'theories' that Judas Priest are possibly the most Engerlisch band of the lot (well amongst those who supposedly 'know better' or were champs in form5 debate teams), and even Morrissey went for a heavier/'glam' sound.
and if to keep you happy and satisfied and righteous amongst yrselves, Todd Haynes is directing some sort of Dylan biopic as we tpye. If it's a brilliant as 'Velvet Goldmine' we should all be happy.
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blissblogger
Well-known member
Buick6 said:
that's obvious, borderline trite -- and doesn't alter the fact that the Beatles and Stones reworking of Black American music was more successful/more advanced/more influential than those groups nearest contenders in white America doing a similar kind of reworking at that time -- they were closer to roots of the music than the Brits, but there was still some distance involved -- since it was mostly non-Southerners reworking essentially Southern music.
Buick6 said:
i don't think anyone's ignorant of that actually -- indeed i would match and raise you on that one and say that from 1963 to circa 1983 the UK is either running tings or at very least giving the
USA a serious run for its money. White Blues -- UK-driven (aka the Brit invasion). Psychedelia -- 50/50 between UK and West Coast. Heavy metal (as you said) -- UK invention. Prog rock -- UK invention. Glam -- like you said. Punk rock -- much more moot than people are wont to say, the UK punks had their own precursors (mod, glam'n'glitter, pink fairies/hawkwind, pub rock) as well obviously drawing on the garage punk/velvets/stooges/ny dolls lineage. And bear in mind that American garage punk is a response to Them/Kinks/Troggs/Yardbirds/Animals/Stones in the first place. Postpunk -- UK running tings lets be honest. New Pop -- obviously derivative in large part on black american music (at least the stuff that wasn't synthpop) but there's a reason it was called the Second British Invasion when it arrived in America.
The mystery, which warrants its own thread, is what went wrong - why did this two decade period when Britain was co-regent with America in terms of the global Anglophone pop-rock hegemony come to an end? Did UK music just turn crap, or did America get isolationist, or what?
Buick6 said:
i really like some of his other films, but i thought VG was a failure -- really disappointing.
I have to say I find the UK vs. US debate fairly pointless, and weirdly nationalist. You can argue forever about who was running "tings," and you won't get an answer, and there aren't really any interesting ideas produced along the way.
In terms of what happened post 83 or whatever though, I think it would be more accurate to say that the UK turned isolationist. And so America stopped caring, because UK music wasn't reflecting America back to itself anymore.
Velvet Goldmine was disappointing because it was basically Todd Haynes' teenage fantasy of Iggy and David.
In terms of what happened post 83 or whatever though, I think it would be more accurate to say that the UK turned isolationist. And so America stopped caring, because UK music wasn't reflecting America back to itself anymore.
Velvet Goldmine was disappointing because it was basically Todd Haynes' teenage fantasy of Iggy and David.
blissblogger said:
Funny how people totally forget Elvis, eh? The Stones and Beatles pioneered the STADIUM ROCK thing, ironcially not an American invention. And then there's the Sonics, Seeds, the whole unsung Pebbles regional garage rock of the US, which was all pretty much electrified white soul. But yes the 'British Invasion' was a massive influence on American bands, still is actually....
Funny thing is that these bands were MASSIVE influences on KISS, who to many represent everything that is horrible and disgusting about CORPORATE ROCK (and they well and truly 'perfected' it!)..
Post-punk was defintely a MADE IN UK phenom, and prolly the point where the whole UK/US war started, as stated in my previous point, but then you could almost track it back to the 'Mods' - the great rock enigma if you ask me...!
But as JoeSchmo so succinctly pointed out, the US stopped giving a fuck and started to create some really ORIGINAL musics at this time like hiphop, hardcore punk, psychadelic noisecore and we all know what THAT did to UK music - 'Blissed Out' book anyone???
The thing I prefer about US music is it's lack of 'class distinction' and self-consciousness, part of the reason why even underground musics can become very populist. But the triple irony is that the underground American musics only get accepted in UK/Europe before back home. Thats also due to the fact that Americans generally don't have as good taste as the Poms or Euros.
Stock Aitken and Waterman and Rouge Trade Records had alot to do with it - the Smiths had a seriously reactionary agenda that filtered into a somewhat sort of nationalism, but the Smiths were always a bit of a mod band at their best... Grunge rubbed their noses in it. Techno/electronic started to muddy the waters, but hiphop seems to be getting it's pay-back these days and prolly will until the end of the decade. I predict some perverse sort of Christian rock to become the next domination, what with Foo Fighters and Weezer and ColdPlay being some of the biggest live tickets, NERD are black-Chritian hiphop, and country music becoming oh so chic....Get used to it..
Shit films have good soundtracks.
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Woebot
Well-known member
the best thing about that documentary thus far is the old studio footage of:
• john julius niles (total shivers down the spine stuff......truly special)
• odetta (insane)
and, which surprised me,
• the joan baez which was completely spell-binding (if less compulsively bizarre than the other two)
(shrugs) the footage of dylan thus far couldnt hold a candle to any of this stuff.....
• john julius niles (total shivers down the spine stuff......truly special)
• odetta (insane)
and, which surprised me,
• the joan baez which was completely spell-binding (if less compulsively bizarre than the other two)
(shrugs) the footage of dylan thus far couldnt hold a candle to any of this stuff.....
S
simon silverdollar
Guest
what i like about dylan, and what interests me about him, is that he does rock music that doesn't sound at all macho or laddish. and that seems like an important step. (not that i necessarily dislike laddish music- i mean, i LOVE The Sonics).