Page 6 of 102 FirstFirst ... 456781656 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 1527

Thread: questions you are dying to ask but are too scared to b/c of music nerd cred?

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by confucius
    thanks. I knew he wasn't the king of the vibrato.
    lolololol

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    699

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DonRuba
    I'm not sure that I get the difference here.

    Is your point that if for example Capleton says "Slew all battyman", he isn't literally ordering his listeners to go out and kill all homosexuals, but just telling that the way he sees things, it would be nice if all homosexuals got killed?

    But then "slew" still means "kill"?
    i don't really think that capleton wishes death on all gay people. i don't think 'slew' is meant literally. i see it as a criticism of a lifestyle, made using hyperbole.

    here's another example. when anthony b sings 'bun out tv, bun out dvd' does he mean:

    (a) a command to his listeners/followers to go and burn tvs/dvds
    (b) that he thinks it would be nice if all tvs/dvds were burnt
    (c) that he thinks that tvs/dvds are symbols of a decadent lifestyle and he sees them as having a negative influence on life in jamaica

    er....

    Quote Originally Posted by DonRuba
    Wow, that's just great. So if we would agree that Jamaican dancehall artists don't literally want to kill homosexuals, it's would all of a sudden be totally okay for them to say that homosexuals are the scum of the earth in a lot of their song lyrics?
    i'm not sure i have a problem with people expressing negative views about homosexuality. i don't think the way most jamaican artist address the issue is very constructive (understatement), so i don't think it's 'totally okay' - but i don't think the whole issue should be as taboo as it is perhaps.

  3. #78
    droid Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel
    i don't really think that capleton wishes death on all gay people. i don't think 'slew' is meant literally. i see it as a criticism of a lifestyle, made using hyperbole.

    here's another example. when anthony b sings 'bun out tv, bun out dvd' does he mean:

    (a) a command to his listeners/followers to go and burn tvs/dvds
    (b) that he thinks it would be nice if all tvs/dvds were burnt
    (c) that he thinks that tvs/dvds are symbols of a decadent lifestyle and he sees them as having a negative influence on life in jamaica

    er....
    The use of the term 'bun' by rastas is, for sure not generally meant to be taken literally, but Antony B is probably one of the few DJ's who consistently uses it in the wider sense to criticise the ills of society in general, and not purely to spit vitriol at homosexuality. And Im not so sure that non-rastas like TOK (to pick an obvious example) are being metaphorical when they talk about 'buning' down gay bars either.

    RE : your assessment of Capleton's intentions. Even if you give him 'Bun'/'Slew' and 'More Fire' as metaphorical terms on a first listen, once you check out some of his discography, IMO it becomes fairly clear that he's not necessarily sticking to the realm of metaphor for some of his other yrics:

    “Sadomite and batty man mi shot up...Whoa”

    "Yow...String dem up and hang dem up alive
    Dis mamma earth sey none can survive"

    "Bun out da chi chi - Blood out da chi chi"

    Personally - I think Capletons' a cynical bigot who hypes the Battyman tunes to make sell records, and I reckon his use of 'bun' and 'slew' could easily be taken literally given the lyrical context that he provides in much of the rest of his work.

    i'm not sure i have a problem with people expressing negative views about homosexuality. i don't think the way most jamaican artist address the issue is very constructive (understatement), so i don't think it's 'totally okay' - but i don't think the whole issue should be as taboo as it is perhaps.
    Im not sure what you mean by this? Are you trying to say that criticism of homosexuality is, but shouldnt be a 'taboo'?

    The problem with the Jamaican approach to Homosexuality isnt that its 'negative', its that it doesnt really enter into the realm of criticism at all. Its simply prejudice. Its a pre-judgement based on what you are over who you are" - and as such seems little different to racism in my eyes.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brixton, london
    Posts
    1,870

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel
    i'm not sure i have a problem with people expressing negative views about homosexuality. i don't think the way most jamaican artist address the issue is very constructive (understatement), so i don't think it's 'totally okay' - but i don't think the whole issue should be as taboo as it is perhaps.
    do you apply the same view to racist abuse? should that no longer be taboo?

    is there any qualitative difference between the two, in your eyes? sounds like an excuse for plain old homophobia to me.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    699

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bassnation
    do you apply the same view to racist abuse? should that no longer be taboo? is there any qualitative difference between the two, in your eyes? sounds like an excuse for plain old homophobia to me.
    there's a difference between homophobic abuse and expressing your views about homosexuality. the former is obviously something i condemn. i'm not saying homophobic abuse shouldn't be taboo, but i don't think that making songs about your views (or the public's) on homosexuality constitutes homophobic abuse.

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brixton, london
    Posts
    1,870

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel
    there's a difference between homophobic abuse and expressing your views about homosexuality. the former is obviously something i condemn. i'm not saying homophobic abuse shouldn't be taboo, but i don't think that making songs about your views (or the public's) on homosexuality constitutes homophobic abuse.
    so by this logic its ok to write songs about blacks and asians being the scum of the earth and it would be better if they weren't round?

    i'm sure theres a lot of people who do find it abusive, even if you don't as (presumably, big assumption here) a straight man. whether or not it classifies as abuse, its still hatred and predjudice - do you really support that?

    interested in your thinking on this.
    Last edited by bassnation; 01-11-2005 at 01:37 PM.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    699

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bassnation
    so by this logic its ok to write songs about blacks and asians being the scum of the earth and it would be better if they weren't round?

    i'm not sure i understand your thinking on this.
    yeah when you put it like that it does sound ridiculous. but then it leaves me confused as to why so many people who would never put up with tunes like that about black people and asians (e.g. most of the dancehall fans on this board, i'm assuming) can put up with the anti-gay stuff? i don't think the comparison with racial stuff always works... though i agree with droid's comments about the anti-gay attitude of many jamaicans being simple prejudice. i dunno really, i never get anywhere thinking about this stuff. but i don't think it's as simple, black & white or cut & dried as it's often made out to be...

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    699

    Default

    droid...

    The use of the term 'bun' by rastas is, for sure not generally meant to be taken literally, but Antony B is probably one of the few DJ's who consistently uses it in the wider sense to criticise the ills of society in general and not purely to spit vitriol at homosexuality

    hmm... i'd say its use in this sense is more widespread. will have a think about some lyrics. certainly i wayne uses it like this as well.

    And Im not so sure that non-rastas like TOK (to pick an obvious example) are being metaphorical when they talk about 'buning' down gay bars either.

    yeah i dunno, i'm aware that i often give way too much slack to these artists in their meanings, but... they're certainly not describing their own actions, are they? and do you think their intention is to command/encourage others to do anything? do they actualyl want gay people or gay bars to be burnt?

    and regarding capleton - yeah definitely, lots of lyrics are really horrible, and over the top, and use nasty imagery. but again, i just can't really take these literally. for one it doesn't chime in with his positive music (this is always a tough one with people like him and sizzla). and this is the kind of thing that makes me think, like you say, that a lot of it has nothing to do with personal beliefs and everything to do with career paths - e.g. sizzla and capleton do well our of making anti-gay and pro-peace tunes, so they do it; neither necessarily reflects how they feel about the world.

    Are you trying to say that criticism of homosexuality is, but shouldnt be a 'taboo'?

    it's increasingly a taboo, yes, don't you think? generally i'd say criticisim of anything shuoldn't be taboo; certainly discussion about it.

    The problem with the Jamaican approach to Homosexuality isnt that its 'negative', its that it doesnt really enter into the realm of criticism at all. Its simply prejudice. Its a pre-judgement based on what you are over who you are" - and as such seems little different to racism in my eyes.

    yes, I see that and think that's true - but not that homophobia in a general way is the same as racism really

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brixton, london
    Posts
    1,870

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel
    yeah when you put it like that it does sound ridiculous. but then it leaves me confused as to why so many people who would never put up with tunes like that about black people and asians (e.g. most of the dancehall fans on this board, i'm assuming) can put up with the anti-gay stuff? i don't think the comparison with racial stuff always works... though i agree with droid's comments about the anti-gay attitude of many jamaicans being simple prejudice. i dunno really, i never get anywhere thinking about this stuff. but i don't think it's as simple, black & white or cut & dried as it's often made out to be...
    i think dancehalls made big steps in eradicating this kind of overt prejudice, was reading an interview with sean paul where he was talking about how little time he has for it, how much he feels its damaged dancehalls standing. a lot of the producers and people involved seem to be thinking the same way.

    however: you can't choose your sexuality just like you can't change your race and everyone deserves respect. so in what respect is homophobia any different from racism?
    Last edited by bassnation; 01-11-2005 at 01:49 PM.

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    699

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bassnation
    i think dancehalls made big steps in eradicating this kind of overt prejudice, was reading an interview with sean paul where he was talking about how little time he has for it, how much he feels its damaged dancehalls standing. a lot of the producers and people involved seem to be thinking the same way.

    however: you can't choose your sexuality just like you can't change your race and everyone deserves respect. so in what respect is homophobia any different from racism?
    i agree on all points.

    but - while individuals can't choose their own sexuality, sexuality does seem to me to be something cultural rather than physical (not just re: homo vs hetero, but also the varying kinds of sexualities people have, e.g. being into certain practices or not, being promiscuous or not etc etc). in this way, i don't think 'being gay' is like 'being chinese' (though i agree that it is similar in the sense that the indivudal doesn't have control over it), because there's cultural factors that affect the former and not the latter... i don't know, i haven't thought this through entirely but there's something different there. (though perhaps it's not relevant to this debate.. not sure!)

  11. #86
    droid Guest

    Default

    Thanks for the thoughtful response Gabriel - sorry if you guys have overtaken me i the meantime...

    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel
    droid...

    hmm... i'd say its use in this sense is more widespread. will have a think about some lyrics. certainly i wayne uses it like this as well.
    Oh yeah - but more so in roots/reggae circles, or in everyday language in Jamiaca than in dancehall IMO.

    yeah i dunno, i'm aware that i often give way too much slack to these artists in their meanings, but... they're certainly not describing their own actions, are they? and do you think their intention is to command/encourage others to do anything? do they actualyl want gay people or gay bars to be burnt?
    Well why say it then? Its either a cynical ploy to sell records, or a genuine call for violence (though probably a combination of both). Either way its fairly despicable.

    and regarding capleton - yeah definitely, lots of lyrics are really horrible, and over the top, and use nasty imagery. but again, i just can't really take these literally. for one it doesn't chime in with his positive music (this is always a tough one with people like him and sizzla). and this is the kind of thing that makes me think, like you say, that a lot of it has nothing to do with personal beliefs and everything to do with career paths - e.g. sizzla and capleton do well our of making anti-gay and pro-peace tunes, so they do it; neither necessarily reflects how they feel about the world.
    I think youre giving them way too much slack here. There are certain tunes from both the artists youve mentioned that are so specific that the only sensible interpretation is a literal one, especially when you look at the context of Jamaican society and its hatred of homosexuals , and as I mentioned above, the 'carrerist' motivation isnt exactly an honourable one either...

    Are you trying to say that criticism of homosexuality is, but shouldnt be a 'taboo'?

    it's increasingly a taboo, yes, don't you think? generally i'd say criticisim of anything shuoldn't be taboo; certainly discussion about it.
    Im not so sure it is a taboo at all. Perhaps in the media and 'polite' society, but afaik, kids still call each other 'fag' in the playground, and the term 'queer' is in general, used in a derogatory rather than salutory fashion.

    Sure - criticism shouldnt be taboo, but it depends on the context. Most 'critics' of homosexuals dont strike me as being interested in making specific and constructive comments about aspects of homosexual life, rather, they criticise the state of being homosexual in itself, and generalise based on half truths and distorted stereotypes. This is why I see homophobia as being on par with racism. Its exactly the same thought process at work.

    yes, I see that and think that's true - but not that homophobia in a general way is the same as racism really
    How so?

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brixton, london
    Posts
    1,870

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel
    i agree on all points.

    but - while individuals can't choose their own sexuality, sexuality does seem to me to be something cultural rather than physical (not just re: homo vs hetero, but also the varying kinds of sexualities people have, e.g. being into certain practices or not, being promiscuous or not etc etc). in this way, i don't think 'being gay' is like 'being chinese' (though i agree that it is similar in the sense that the indivudal doesn't have control over it), because there's cultural factors that affect the former and not the latter... i don't know, i haven't thought this through entirely but there's something different there. (though perhaps it's not relevant to this debate.. not sure!)
    well, this all goes back to the nature vs nurture debate, not something that its easy to dip into briefly here. but i'd argue that it is innate. a lot of people i know felt that way as children, they knew they were different from others before they even understood why.

    also homosexuality is not a homogenous thing - almost all of the stereotypical cliches that people talk about, the promiscuity etc cannot be applied generally across all gay people in the same way that you can't generalise about west indians, or caucasions - it doesn't hold up to close examination.

    its also worth mentioning that a lot of factors involved in racism centre around cultural differences - probably more than the physical manifestations such as skin colour etc.

    i guess what i'm trying to say is even if it was just a lifestyle choice it would still be wrong to hate gay people. opression is oppression - there is no hierarchy of suffering that would enable us to classify racism above homophobia, or class some forms of racism as more acceptable than others. if one form is wrong, then it all is.

  13. #88
    droid Guest

    Default

    Think you answered my last question there with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel
    but - while individuals can't choose their own sexuality, sexuality does seem to me to be something cultural rather than physical (not just re: homo vs hetero, but also the varying kinds of sexualities people have, e.g. being into certain practices or not, being promiscuous or not etc etc). in this way, i don't think 'being gay' is like 'being chinese' (though i agree that it is similar in the sense that the indivudal doesn't have control over it), because there's cultural factors that affect the former and not the latter... i don't know, i haven't thought this through entirely but there's something different there. (though perhaps it's not relevant to this debate.. not sure!)
    You might have a point there, in that there may be cultural and/or biological reasons for sexuality, but either way, its not something that someone can really have any concious control over. Even JA homphobes seem confused as to wheter its 'Inna Dem blood' or not. Fact is - it doesnt matter.

    Gays have been beaten, killed, and even exterminated en masse alongside their racially undesirable fellow victims throughout history, and when assessing homphobia in relation to racism, its worth considering that had things gone the other way in WW2, that homosexuals would have been exterminated along with the worlds population of Jews, 'inferior' Asians, Slavs, Black and Brown people...

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    699

    Default

    Oh yeah - but more so in roots/reggae circles, or in everyday language in Jamiaca than in dancehall IMO.

    ok - i wasn't distinguishing between dancehall and roots reggae, but i can see your point

    Well why say it then? Its either a cynical ploy to sell records, or a genuine call for violence (though probably a combination of both). Either way its fairly despicable.

    i still reject the idea that music functions as a call to violence in dancehall/reggae, but yeah i agree that the songs are pretty despicable none the less. do you think it's equally cynical that dancehall artists like mr vegas and assassin, who don't smoke weed, write ganja tunes?

    I think youre giving them way too much slack here.

    yes i think you're probably right!

    Im not so sure it is a taboo at all. Perhaps in the media and 'polite' society

    yes - i live in polite society, so forget about the rest

    this aside, kids calling each other fag and queer isn't exactly what i meant by 'criticisim of homosexuality', but anyway...

    Most 'critics' of homosexuals dont strike me as being interested in making specific and constructive comments about aspects of homosexual life, rather, they criticise the state of being homosexual in itself, and generalise based on half truths and distorted stereotypes.
    This is why I see homophobia as being on par with racism. Its exactly the same thought process at work.


    yes i can see that comparison works. there's still some difference between the two that i can't put my finger on. gonna have to give this one some more thought...

  15. #90
    droid Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bassnation
    i guess what i'm trying to say is even if it was just a lifestyle choice it would still be wrong to hate gay people. opression is oppression - there is no hierarchy of suffering that would enable us to classify racism above homophobia, or class some forms of racism as more acceptable than others. if one form is wrong, then it all is.
    Big bars.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •