questions you are dying to ask but are too scared to b/c of music nerd cred?

bassnation

the abyss
gabriel said:
there's a difference between homophobic abuse and expressing your views about homosexuality. the former is obviously something i condemn. i'm not saying homophobic abuse shouldn't be taboo, but i don't think that making songs about your views (or the public's) on homosexuality constitutes homophobic abuse.

so by this logic its ok to write songs about blacks and asians being the scum of the earth and it would be better if they weren't round?

i'm sure theres a lot of people who do find it abusive, even if you don't as (presumably, big assumption here) a straight man. whether or not it classifies as abuse, its still hatred and predjudice - do you really support that?

interested in your thinking on this.
 
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gabriel

The Heatwave
bassnation said:
so by this logic its ok to write songs about blacks and asians being the scum of the earth and it would be better if they weren't round?

i'm not sure i understand your thinking on this.

yeah when you put it like that it does sound ridiculous. but then it leaves me confused as to why so many people who would never put up with tunes like that about black people and asians (e.g. most of the dancehall fans on this board, i'm assuming) can put up with the anti-gay stuff? i don't think the comparison with racial stuff always works... though i agree with droid's comments about the anti-gay attitude of many jamaicans being simple prejudice. i dunno really, i never get anywhere thinking about this stuff. but i don't think it's as simple, black & white or cut & dried as it's often made out to be...
 

gabriel

The Heatwave
droid...

The use of the term 'bun' by rastas is, for sure not generally meant to be taken literally, but Antony B is probably one of the few DJ's who consistently uses it in the wider sense to criticise the ills of society in general and not purely to spit vitriol at homosexuality

hmm... i'd say its use in this sense is more widespread. will have a think about some lyrics. certainly i wayne uses it like this as well.

And Im not so sure that non-rastas like TOK (to pick an obvious example) are being metaphorical when they talk about 'buning' down gay bars either.

yeah i dunno, i'm aware that i often give way too much slack to these artists in their meanings, but... they're certainly not describing their own actions, are they? and do you think their intention is to command/encourage others to do anything? do they actualyl want gay people or gay bars to be burnt?

and regarding capleton - yeah definitely, lots of lyrics are really horrible, and over the top, and use nasty imagery. but again, i just can't really take these literally. for one it doesn't chime in with his positive music (this is always a tough one with people like him and sizzla). and this is the kind of thing that makes me think, like you say, that a lot of it has nothing to do with personal beliefs and everything to do with career paths - e.g. sizzla and capleton do well our of making anti-gay and pro-peace tunes, so they do it; neither necessarily reflects how they feel about the world.

Are you trying to say that criticism of homosexuality is, but shouldnt be a 'taboo'?

it's increasingly a taboo, yes, don't you think? generally i'd say criticisim of anything shuoldn't be taboo; certainly discussion about it.

The problem with the Jamaican approach to Homosexuality isnt that its 'negative', its that it doesnt really enter into the realm of criticism at all. Its simply prejudice. Its a pre-judgement based on what you are over who you are" - and as such seems little different to racism in my eyes.

yes, I see that and think that's true - but not that homophobia in a general way is the same as racism really
 

bassnation

the abyss
gabriel said:
yeah when you put it like that it does sound ridiculous. but then it leaves me confused as to why so many people who would never put up with tunes like that about black people and asians (e.g. most of the dancehall fans on this board, i'm assuming) can put up with the anti-gay stuff? i don't think the comparison with racial stuff always works... though i agree with droid's comments about the anti-gay attitude of many jamaicans being simple prejudice. i dunno really, i never get anywhere thinking about this stuff. but i don't think it's as simple, black & white or cut & dried as it's often made out to be...

i think dancehalls made big steps in eradicating this kind of overt prejudice, was reading an interview with sean paul where he was talking about how little time he has for it, how much he feels its damaged dancehalls standing. a lot of the producers and people involved seem to be thinking the same way.

however: you can't choose your sexuality just like you can't change your race and everyone deserves respect. so in what respect is homophobia any different from racism?
 
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gabriel

The Heatwave
bassnation said:
i think dancehalls made big steps in eradicating this kind of overt prejudice, was reading an interview with sean paul where he was talking about how little time he has for it, how much he feels its damaged dancehalls standing. a lot of the producers and people involved seem to be thinking the same way.

however: you can't choose your sexuality just like you can't change your race and everyone deserves respect. so in what respect is homophobia any different from racism?

i agree on all points.

but - while individuals can't choose their own sexuality, sexuality does seem to me to be something cultural rather than physical (not just re: homo vs hetero, but also the varying kinds of sexualities people have, e.g. being into certain practices or not, being promiscuous or not etc etc). in this way, i don't think 'being gay' is like 'being chinese' (though i agree that it is similar in the sense that the indivudal doesn't have control over it), because there's cultural factors that affect the former and not the latter... i don't know, i haven't thought this through entirely but there's something different there. (though perhaps it's not relevant to this debate.. not sure!)
 
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droid

Guest
Thanks for the thoughtful response Gabriel - sorry if you guys have overtaken me i the meantime...

gabriel said:
droid...

hmm... i'd say its use in this sense is more widespread. will have a think about some lyrics. certainly i wayne uses it like this as well.

Oh yeah - but more so in roots/reggae circles, or in everyday language in Jamiaca than in dancehall IMO.

yeah i dunno, i'm aware that i often give way too much slack to these artists in their meanings, but... they're certainly not describing their own actions, are they? and do you think their intention is to command/encourage others to do anything? do they actualyl want gay people or gay bars to be burnt?

Well why say it then? Its either a cynical ploy to sell records, or a genuine call for violence (though probably a combination of both). Either way its fairly despicable.

and regarding capleton - yeah definitely, lots of lyrics are really horrible, and over the top, and use nasty imagery. but again, i just can't really take these literally. for one it doesn't chime in with his positive music (this is always a tough one with people like him and sizzla). and this is the kind of thing that makes me think, like you say, that a lot of it has nothing to do with personal beliefs and everything to do with career paths - e.g. sizzla and capleton do well our of making anti-gay and pro-peace tunes, so they do it; neither necessarily reflects how they feel about the world.

I think youre giving them way too much slack here. There are certain tunes from both the artists youve mentioned that are so specific that the only sensible interpretation is a literal one, especially when you look at the context of Jamaican society and its hatred of homosexuals , and as I mentioned above, the 'carrerist' motivation isnt exactly an honourable one either...

Are you trying to say that criticism of homosexuality is, but shouldnt be a 'taboo'?

it's increasingly a taboo, yes, don't you think? generally i'd say criticisim of anything shuoldn't be taboo; certainly discussion about it.

Im not so sure it is a taboo at all. Perhaps in the media and 'polite' society, but afaik, kids still call each other 'fag' in the playground, and the term 'queer' is in general, used in a derogatory rather than salutory fashion.

Sure - criticism shouldnt be taboo, but it depends on the context. Most 'critics' of homosexuals dont strike me as being interested in making specific and constructive comments about aspects of homosexual life, rather, they criticise the state of being homosexual in itself, and generalise based on half truths and distorted stereotypes. This is why I see homophobia as being on par with racism. Its exactly the same thought process at work.

yes, I see that and think that's true - but not that homophobia in a general way is the same as racism really

How so?
 

bassnation

the abyss
gabriel said:
i agree on all points.

but - while individuals can't choose their own sexuality, sexuality does seem to me to be something cultural rather than physical (not just re: homo vs hetero, but also the varying kinds of sexualities people have, e.g. being into certain practices or not, being promiscuous or not etc etc). in this way, i don't think 'being gay' is like 'being chinese' (though i agree that it is similar in the sense that the indivudal doesn't have control over it), because there's cultural factors that affect the former and not the latter... i don't know, i haven't thought this through entirely but there's something different there. (though perhaps it's not relevant to this debate.. not sure!)

well, this all goes back to the nature vs nurture debate, not something that its easy to dip into briefly here. but i'd argue that it is innate. a lot of people i know felt that way as children, they knew they were different from others before they even understood why.

also homosexuality is not a homogenous thing - almost all of the stereotypical cliches that people talk about, the promiscuity etc cannot be applied generally across all gay people in the same way that you can't generalise about west indians, or caucasions - it doesn't hold up to close examination.

its also worth mentioning that a lot of factors involved in racism centre around cultural differences - probably more than the physical manifestations such as skin colour etc.

i guess what i'm trying to say is even if it was just a lifestyle choice it would still be wrong to hate gay people. opression is oppression - there is no hierarchy of suffering that would enable us to classify racism above homophobia, or class some forms of racism as more acceptable than others. if one form is wrong, then it all is.
 
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droid

Guest
Think you answered my last question there with this:

gabriel said:
but - while individuals can't choose their own sexuality, sexuality does seem to me to be something cultural rather than physical (not just re: homo vs hetero, but also the varying kinds of sexualities people have, e.g. being into certain practices or not, being promiscuous or not etc etc). in this way, i don't think 'being gay' is like 'being chinese' (though i agree that it is similar in the sense that the indivudal doesn't have control over it), because there's cultural factors that affect the former and not the latter... i don't know, i haven't thought this through entirely but there's something different there. (though perhaps it's not relevant to this debate.. not sure!)

You might have a point there, in that there may be cultural and/or biological reasons for sexuality, but either way, its not something that someone can really have any concious control over. Even JA homphobes seem confused as to wheter its 'Inna Dem blood' or not. Fact is - it doesnt matter.

Gays have been beaten, killed, and even exterminated en masse alongside their racially undesirable fellow victims throughout history, and when assessing homphobia in relation to racism, its worth considering that had things gone the other way in WW2, that homosexuals would have been exterminated along with the worlds population of Jews, 'inferior' Asians, Slavs, Black and Brown people...
 

gabriel

The Heatwave
Oh yeah - but more so in roots/reggae circles, or in everyday language in Jamiaca than in dancehall IMO.

ok - i wasn't distinguishing between dancehall and roots reggae, but i can see your point

Well why say it then? Its either a cynical ploy to sell records, or a genuine call for violence (though probably a combination of both). Either way its fairly despicable.

i still reject the idea that music functions as a call to violence in dancehall/reggae, but yeah i agree that the songs are pretty despicable none the less. do you think it's equally cynical that dancehall artists like mr vegas and assassin, who don't smoke weed, write ganja tunes?

I think youre giving them way too much slack here.

yes i think you're probably right!

Im not so sure it is a taboo at all. Perhaps in the media and 'polite' society

yes - i live in polite society, so forget about the rest :cool:

this aside, kids calling each other fag and queer isn't exactly what i meant by 'criticisim of homosexuality', but anyway...

Most 'critics' of homosexuals dont strike me as being interested in making specific and constructive comments about aspects of homosexual life, rather, they criticise the state of being homosexual in itself, and generalise based on half truths and distorted stereotypes.
This is why I see homophobia as being on par with racism. Its exactly the same thought process at work.


yes i can see that comparison works. there's still some difference between the two that i can't put my finger on. gonna have to give this one some more thought...
 
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droid

Guest
bassnation said:
i guess what i'm trying to say is even if it was just a lifestyle choice it would still be wrong to hate gay people. opression is oppression - there is no hierarchy of suffering that would enable us to classify racism above homophobia, or class some forms of racism as more acceptable than others. if one form is wrong, then it all is.

Big bars.
 

bassnation

the abyss
Logan Sama said:
Is having a disgust for the intimate physical acts homosexuals carry out considered a hate crime?

no, as far as i'm aware you can't be arrested for the contents of your thoughts just yet.

but when its expressed as a diatribe of hatred to someones face, or in some other public way its crossing a line, don't you think?
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
It is a difficult thing to assess, because having a dislike of people based solely on their cultural roots and only expressing it in the comfort of your own home is still being racist, and no better than people who openly are racist in my opinion.

I meant do you consider having a strong dislike for the physical practises of homosexuals to be reprehensible?
 

h-crimm

Well-known member
Originally Posted by Logan Sama
Is having a disgust for the intimate physical acts homosexuals carry out considered a hate crime?


would it be 'hate' to be disgusted at the "intimate physical acts" carried out by a mixed race couple?


fundamentally its none of your buisness. and if you arent upset by other parts of thier relationship there's no logical reason to even think about it.

its obviously not 'hate' to know some things are not for you, and that includes being disgusted at the thought of doing it yourself. but if no part of you is involved (if its other people somewhere else in private) how can it be disgusting?
it's not hate to not be into oral sex (even if you havent tried it, and prejudge it as rubbish) but its dodgy when you start trying to interfere with other people's private lives, isnt it?
 

bassnation

the abyss
Logan Sama said:
It is a difficult thing to assess, because having a dislike of people based solely on their cultural roots and only expressing it in the comfort of your own home is still being racist, and no better than people who openly are racist in my opinion.

I meant do you consider having a strong dislike for the physical practises of homosexuals to be reprehensible?

i understand what your saying. i don't think it is. i think its part and parcel of peoples sexuality to find the opposite a bit bewhildering imo. i think feeling this is very different to thinking "this is morally wrong" or "they should be killed"

also, a lot of gay people find straight sex to be digusting (i hesitate to use that word because it feels so loaded, but its probably the right one), so it cuts both ways.
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
confucius said:
I went to a talk with Oval's Markus Popp and he was trying to absolve himself of any creative responsibility by talking about his work in these terms. this exemplifies a tendency in a lot of artists who make use of "generative" methods to conveniently remove themselves from the focus of critical debate to the safe distance of "clock-maker" -- "hey, don't ask me, I just make the damn things. what they wanna do is not my problem".

It was a little too smug and convenient and I had to point out that despite whatever systems or software (tools) he is using, there is absolutely no way authorship can be denied. Nor his personality or subjective aesthetic choices or ego, which can all be found in the music he directly or indirectly makes.

even a clinically cut and dry and seemingly impersonal "systems" piece like Penduluum or Sitting in a Room speaks volumes about the composer's personality and taste.

if systems music is some kind of removal of the artists's ego, then so is photography. which is absurd.

Been off the board for a few days, so only just caught this - WAY Xposting, obviously - yeah, denying all authorship is a bit daft (and not actually possible, even in John Cage's case I think you can spot weak imitations), but I think it is possible to set up a situation (which will be determined by aesthetic choices/ego, etc) and then just let it run itself according to those original rules, which is what the most austere Lucier, Reich, etc pieces are doing. But the purest examples of that are actually pretty rare.
 
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Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
h-crimm said:
would it be 'hate' to be disgusted at the "intimate physical acts" carried out by a mixed race couple?

No, it would be irrational, as they are probably no different to what the person does in their own relationship.

I have a problem with gay sex on medical grounds. And your comment about how it has no bearing on myself as I am not directly involved in it would negate every sexual law ever written in the history of mankind surely?
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
Spectralism

More on the Spectralist tip... [and another big Xpost, sorry]

Yeah, Ligeti not one of the Spectralists, although he was probably an influence in some way (he's been an influence on most composers of the last 40 years in some way or another). Similarly Xenakis I suppose. If you like either of these, you might like spectral music, it can have that colouristic wash effect, as well as quite brutal moments. Spectralism itself was a movement of mainly French composers that started in the 70s, off the back of IRCAM (the sound research centre underneath the Pompidou Centre). Michael's explanation of the technical aspects is a good summary, but as well as being musically linked, the composers also shared some radical political affiliations too (which don't get much talked about); overall, think an extension of Paris '68 into the 70s.

The big men from France are Tristan Murail, Gerard Grisey - who died suddenly in 1999 - and Hugues Dufourt, who came up with the term. There's also a German-based strand of spectralism; many of the composers here studied with Stockhausen, although he's definitely not a spectral composer himself. Peter Eotvos, Claude Vivier and Mesias Maiguashca are three names there - Eotvos I can easily recommend. And there's a Romanian strand too, oddly enough: look out for Iancu Dumitrescu (who seems to appear on Resonance a lot) and Horatiu Radelescu among others. There's also a sort of second-generation spectralism, where the music of, in particular Murail and Grisey (both of whom are great, IMHO) has influenced a number of other composers - see Kaija Saariaho, Magnus Lindberg, Jonathan Harvey, James Dillon and Eric Tanguy.
 
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