50cent - Official Lapdog of the Right

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
joeschmo said:
Ah, but you didn't make the generalization... :)

No. I made it. As a generalization. Not a statement about every single hip-hop act, but about a cultural tendency.

And any comment about hip hop and race would have to bear in mind that a signicant proportion of its audience is, and has been for some time, white.

(Let me sketch my counter-argument anyway: one of the most long-term effects of 400 years of oppression and deepest of deep forms of structural racism in a capitalist society is lack of capital. Capital accumulates and is handed down across generations. If one particular group of people hasn't been able to begin accumulating capital until a mere 50 years ago, the smartest and most revolutionary thing they can do is set about getting hold of it, stat. And then wave it in the face of the oppressor. Asking them to do otherwise--to somehow step outside the prevailing conditions that cause day-to-day suffering and embrace some alternative, unspecified system which exists nowhere close to hand--is incredibly short-sighted, and really only possible from a privileged subject position.)

Ah, entryism!

Newsflash: 'one particular GROUP of people' (i.e. black people) can still NOT 'acquire capital'. The fact that a few, a very few, indeed a handful, of black males have managed to acquire capital through hip hop has done nothing to help the vast majority of the black population make that same acquisition. On the contrary, by peddling a fantasy that is unattainable for most people (black or white), it has exacerbated the situation. This will always be the case in capitalism, which is structurally unequal, and which produces poverty as one of its inevitable side-effects. It is the idea that the majority of black people will ever benefit from capitalism that is astonishingly short-sighted and naive.

(Does the same logic hold for white people, I wonder? Is it beholden on the poor white proletariat or sub-proletariat to ensure they make as much money as possible?)

As for the sad Oedipal fantasy of 'waving capital in the face of the oppressor' ... capitalism is run by impersonal Capital... as if IT cares...

And I'd say that, more than greed, 50 stands for hustle, street smarts, and being a survivor. You could argue those are some positive qualities associated with "capitalism" (whatever the fuck that means anyway), if you wanted to be provocative, too.

Yeh, hip-hop's definitely about being a survivor. Just ask Biggy and Tupac about that.
 

joeschmo

Well-known member
<i> any comment about hip hop and race would have to bear in mind that a signicant proportion of its audience is, and has been for some time, white.</i>

Sure. And the relevance of that is... what?

<i>The fact that a few, a very few, indeed a handful, of black males have managed to acquire capital through hip hop has done nothing to help the vast majority of the black population make that same acquisition. On the contrary, by peddling a fantasy that is unattainable for most people (black or white), it has exacerbated the situation. This will always be the case in capitalism, which is structurally unequal, and which produces poverty as one of its inevitable side-effects. It is the idea that the majority of black people will ever benefit from capitalism that is astonishingly short-sighted and naive. </i>

I might or might not agree with this. (I might agree that capitalism produces poverty as a side-effect. I might also note that the massively expanded black middle class is one of the great stories of the last 50 years in America.) But it's at such a high level of abstraction that it's beside the point. This is music we're talking about, not social theory. I don't expect hip-hop artists to magically produce an alternate social system out of nothing. Especially when almost noone else is working on it. And I don't blame them for dealing with the conditions they're presented with. Oh, so 50 Cent hasn't produced a Marxist critique of American society? He wants to make money so he can get out of the ghetto? He's not a middle-class revolutionary? For shame! There are far more worthy targets.

And there's something that's fundamentally moralistic about criticizing hip-hop for greed. Greed compared to what? The rest of American society? The only difference is that hip-hop stars just wave it in your face a bit more. They're loud--such poor manners! How gauche!
 
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k-punk

Spectres of Mark
joeschmo said:
<i> any comment about hip hop and race would have to bear in mind that a signicant proportion of its audience is, and has been for some time, white.</i>

Sure. And the relevance of that is... what?

Erm, that your 'hey you can't say anything about hip hop coz it's black' point might require some nuancing...

<i>The fact that a few, a very few, indeed a handful, of black males have managed to acquire capital through hip hop has done nothing to help the vast majority of the black population make that same acquisition. On the contrary, by peddling a fantasy that is unattainable for most people (black or white), it has exacerbated the situation. This will always be the case in capitalism, which is structurally unequal, and which produces poverty as one of its inevitable side-effects. It is the idea that the majority of black people will ever benefit from capitalism that is astonishingly short-sighted and naive. </i>

I might or might not agree with this. (I might agree that capitalism produces poverty as a side-effect. I might also note that the massively expanded black middle class is one of the great stories of the last 50 years in America.) But it's at such a high level of abstraction that it's beside the point. This is music we're talking about, not social theory. [/QUOTE]

Your position is really quite nihilistic. .... Music can have no impact on the social... It is fated to be merely an expression of the current socio-economic conditions and can in no way challenge them... At best it can be a kind of lottery which hoists a select few out of poverty....

I don't expect hip-hop artists to magically produce an alternate social system out of nothing. Especially when almost noone else is working on it.

You seem to be entirely ignoring the ways in which music reinforces the existing social system, actually making things worse by narrowing options, if only at the level of fantasy. Presumably on the grounds that all that can be imagined is the forced/ false choice of capital itself: adapt or starve. Hip hop's ideological work consists in reproducing that opposition for capital, a significant task, and one that shouldn't be underestimated. It isn't as if pop has always been like this.... Why do you like Dylan, I wonder? For the formal qualities of his music alone, or because he articulated some desire for change? When it comes to contemporary black artists, though, we must, it seems, lower our expectations... THEY can't be expected to do anything but rhyme about money, violence and sex... It strikes me that this is the real 'white liberal' opinion of hip hop.

And I don't blame them for dealing with the conditions they're presented with.

How could anyone avoid dealing with the conditions they're presented with, since even ignoring them is 'dealing with them'? It's HOW they're dealing with them that's the issue...

Oh, so 50 Cent hasn't produced a Marxist critique of American society? He wants to make money so he can get out of the ghetto? He's not a middle-class revolutionary?

Yes, because we all want him to be middle class revolutionary. And being a revolutionary would automatically mean that you were middle class, of course. There has never been such thing as a BLACK revolutionary, that's unthinkable.

For shame! There are far more worthy targets.

Such as? I can't think of many that have such direct and pernicious influence on young males as hip-hoppers.

And there's something that's fundamentally moralistic about criticizing hip-hop for greed. Greed compared to what? The rest of American society?

Now, here's a thought, maybe American society ain't all that...

The only difference is that hip-hop stars just wave it in your face a bit more. They're loud--such poor manners! How gauche!

OK, so you're now accepting the original claim that hip hop is no different to mainstream capitalist society, a claim you previously rejected as 'specious'. It's not only greed that's the issue... violence... individualism... misogyny... they also play their parts... but I suppose that they, too, are just examples of 'poor manners'... women get attacked all the time, live with it! People get shot in the head everywhere... and I'm blaming hip hoppers for GLORIFYING it? Hush my mouth.
 

joeschmo

Well-known member
<i>'hey you can't say anything about hip hop coz it's black' point might require some nuancing...</i> Except I didn't say that :) Although this particular over-reaction is what you typically see from people who don't want to take race into account.

<i>Music can have no impact on the social...</i> I'd agree with that, pretty much. Very little impact, anyway. This is not nihilistic; it's realistic. A lot more realistic than indulging yourself with the fantasy that mere art can effect social change.

<i>It is fated to be merely an expression of the current socio-economic conditions and can in no way challenge them...</i> No, I wouldn't say that. It can challenge socio-economic conditions. It's just not going to be very effective. It's music, you know? It's not political action.

<i>At best it can be a kind of lottery which hoists a select few out of poverty....</i> Erm, no, that's all you. I didn't say that at all.

<i>And being a revolutionary would automatically mean that you were middle class, of course. There has never been such thing as a BLACK revolutionary, that's unthinkable.</i> I think the historical record shows that yes, revolutionaries usually do come from the middle class. When you're poor, your first task is to get enough money to live on. When you've done that, you might have time to think about critiquing society, let alone changing it. This stuff about no black revolutionaries is, again, all you and nothing to do with what I said.

<i>now accepting the original claim that hip hop is no different to mainstream capitalist society, a claim you previously rejected as 'specious'.</i> Actually, what I reject is the claim that hip-hop is a cartoon glorification of capitalist society.

<I>women get attacked all the time, live with it! People get shot in the head everywhere... and I'm blaming hip hoppers for GLORIFYING it?</i> This is an incredibly simplistic reading of the relationship between art and society that also happens to line you up with the right-wing likes of Bill O'Reilly and anybody else who finds hip-hip to be a convenient strawman on which to blame society's ills...
 
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k-punk

Spectres of Mark
joeschmo said:
<i>'hey you can't say anything about hip hop coz it's black' point might require some nuancing...</i> Except I didn't say that :) Although this particular over-reaction is what you typically see from people who don't want to take race into account.

Who doesn't want to take race into account? I don't think it is acceptable to use race as an EXCUSE for lowering expectations in respect of black people, but that's really quite different.

<i>Music can have no impact on the social...</i> I'd agree with that, pretty much. Very little impact, anyway. This is not nihilistic; it's realistic. A lot more realistic than indulging yourself with the fantasy that mere art can effect social change.

<i>It is fated to be merely an expression of the current socio-economic conditions and can in no way challenge them...</i> No, I wouldn't say that. It can challenge socio-economic conditions. It's just not going to be very effective. It's music, you know? It's not political action.

OK, 'mere art', the position is clear.

<i>At best it can be a kind of lottery which hoists a select few out of poverty....</i> Erm, no, that's all you. I didn't say that at all.

OK, so are you saying it can't EVEN do that, or that it can do MORE than that?

<i>And being a revolutionary would automatically mean that you were middle class, of course. There has never been such thing as a BLACK revolutionary, that's unthinkable.</i> I think the historical record shows that yes, revolutionaries usually do come from the middle class. When you're poor, your first task is to get enough money to live on. When you've done that, you might have time to think about critiquing society, let alone changing it.

This is ludicrously question-begging and ignores whole histories of working class insurgency... and also, more tellingly, and embarrasingly in the week that seamstress and black activist Rosa Parks died, the whole history of black revolutionary action in the US... the panthers.... Malcolm X.... are they all middle class?

This stuff about no black revolutionaries is, again, all you and nothing to do with what I said.

Nothing to do with what you said? What's the point in saying '50 cent is not a middle-class revolutionary' if not to imply that his background precludes him from being a revolutionary?

<i>now accepting the original claim that hip hop is no different to mainstream capitalist society, a claim you previously rejected as 'specious'.</i> Actually, what I reject is the claim that hip-hop is a cartoon glorification of capitalist society.

OK... so which bit don't you agree with? The cartoon or the glorification?

<I>women get attacked all the time, live with it! People get shot in the head everywhere... and I'm blaming hip hoppers for GLORIFYING it?</i> This is an incredibly simplistic reading of the relationship between art and society that also happens to line you up with the right-wing likes of Bill O'Reilly and anybody else who finds hip-hip to be a convenient strawman on which to blame society's ills...

What is simplistic about it? I'm not blaming all of society's ills on hip hop, I'm simply argued the blindingly obvious to anyone but liberal apologists, namely that hip hop ain't helping. As for the fact that right wingers make a similar argument... this is a simple fallacy.... 'X has a dubious political position, X disapproves of Y, therefore Y must be good'... Presumably some right wingers also think that drug dealing is responsible for many of society's ills... does that mean that drug dealing is not to be attacked?

Another way of getting to this is: what has happened such that a mainstream black revolutionary position is not available any more in American popular culture? It was an option once...
 
D

droid

Guest
joeschmo said:
George Bush is a brilliant <i>campaigner</i> who didn't steal any elections. He's an incompetent governer. Two very different things.

Eh? :confused: Arent you forgetting about the rigged eligible voters lists, uncounted votes and general shenanigans in Florida in 2000?

Bush didnt win that election through campaiging. Kathryn Harris handed it to him on a plate.
 

dHarry

Well-known member
k-punk said:
Another way of getting to this is: what has happened such that a mainstream black revolutionary position is not available any more in American popular culture? It was an option once...

Are you referring to Public Enemy? I'm not convinced that their position was socially revolutionary so much as musically, insofar as the Bomb Squad's music/production was an entirely post-modern constructivist collage of samples and found sound. The ostensible message of Chuck D's lyrics was a posture of revolutionary activism, when he was really a pop singer/rapper selling records, not a social activist (even though I know he's done a lot of social work since the demise of the original PE's popularity).

While highlighting many issues, the "black CNN" boast of PE was never really matched by the crude sloganeering of the lyrics, and his "voice of knowledge/truth" and black/Afro-American essentialism (bordering on Nation of Islam support) seemed fundamentally at odds with the formally revolutionary qualities of the music, which radically called into question such positions.

These tensions, as well as the music itself, made them if anything even more exciting, and obviously they were socio-politically leagues ahead of the egotism-greed-misogyny angle of most contemporary rap, so maybe this, despite its problems and contradicitons (or even because of them?), is what's missing from pop culture today (...or maybe you weren't talking about PE at all?!).

On a vaguely related note, I also have to say Kanye West saying "Bush doesn't care about black people" after mumbling incoherently about seeing his finance manager and feeling guilty for spending his $$$ on that clip didn't strike me as a particularly insightful critique into US race relations and politics, despite being a brave statement to make live on autocue TV, to give him some credit.
 

joeschmo

Well-known member
<i>are you saying it can't EVEN do that, or that it can do MORE than that?</i> Eh, I just don't think about music in these terms. In itself, it's not an engine for social change, lottery-model or otherwise.

<i>the panthers.... Malcolm X.... are they all middle class?</i> Huey P. Newton and Bobby Searle went to community college, at least :) They weren't really middle class, but they weren't quite from the ghetto either. But sure, that statement was an over-simplification.

<I>hip hop ain't helping. </i> What I object to is sweeping statements like this about a 30-year-old culture that has always had room for a much greater variety of positions and far more nuance than people who denounce it allow. Kind of like only people who never actually listen to Dylan can say things like "his lyrics are gibberish," only people who never actually listen to hip-hop can write it all off as a cartoon glorification of violence.

<i>what has happened such that a mainstream black revolutionary position is not available any more in American popular culture?</i> A mainstream revolutionary position of any color is not available any more in American popular culture. Times done changed. But also, hip-hop has a heavily Oedipal (for want of a better word) relationship with the previous generation of black activism and is in many ways a response to its failures.
 
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redcrescent

Well-known member
k-punk said:
Another way of getting to this is: what has happened such that a mainstream black revolutionary position is not available any more in American popular culture? It was an option once...
On this note, you said in some other thread: "What happened to black nobility, black power?"
Dunno, but the wording stuck.

Sorry to butt in, carry on.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
joeschmo said:
<i>are you saying it can't EVEN do that, or that it can do MORE than that?</i> Eh, I just don't think about music in these terms. In itself, it's not an engine for social change, lottery-model or otherwise.

So you are now retreating from your earlier claim that hip hop's boorishness etc is justifiable because it gets people out of the ghetto?


<I>hip hop ain't helping. </i> What I object to is sweeping statements like this about a 30-year-old culture that has always had room for a much greater variety of positions and far more nuance than people who denounce it allow.

I reiterate: it was a generalization. It was about an overwhelming trend. It was not about every single hip hop act ever. And it certainly wasn't about hip hop from thirty years ago. It is about what is mostly the case with hip hop now, as is clear from my posts on this thread, which compare hip hop with ITSELF.


Kind of like only people who never actually listen to Dylan can say things like "his lyrics are gibberish," only people who never actually listen to hip-hop can write it all off as a cartoon glorification of violence.

O yeh, I forgot the Dylan claim was definitively refuted. The lyrics were 'surrealistic', not gibberish at all.

Moreover, are you now making a new defence of hip-hop? Previously you had said that its advocacy of violence and capitalist acquisitiveness was justifiable; now you seem to be implying that advocacy isn't happening at all. What are you denying: that hip hop glorifies violence, or that this glorification is cartoonish?

I don't really know where to start with this 'you never actually listen to hip-hop' claim - quite honestly, I think it is the defenders of hip-hop who seem to never actually listen to it - but here's a few starters:

1. Who can AVOID listening to hip-hop? You would have to completely blind yourself to mainstream popular culture to be avoid contact with hip-hop.

2. Given that you don't mean this literally - I obviously do listen to hip-hop - I can only imagine that you mean I don't listen to it ENOUGH. But what constitutes enough? Enough presumably means 'until I like it'.

3. Furthermore, this whole line of argument is circular and question-begging, along the lines of 'you don't like hip-hop because you don't like hip-hop', as if not liking hip-hop were a genetic fate rather than an aesthetic judgement made for certain reasons. The issue is WHY don't I like hip hop NOW (since I have liked it in the past). And the reasons you offer in defence of it are pretty much my reasons for disliking it.
 

joeschmo

Well-known member
<i>So you are now retreating from your earlier claim that hip hop's boorishness etc is justifiable because it gets people out of the ghetto?</i>

Twisting the words again... I wasn't claiming that it was "justifiable." (For a start, that would imply that I think there's something bad there to be justified, which I don't.) I'm no more interested in justifying it than condemning it. I'm not really interested in moral grandstanding about art, period--which is what your position comes down to. I see what you call hip-hop's boorishness (which, although I'm not a fan of 50 Cent, I happen generally to kind of like, sometimes as honesty, sometimes as entertainment) as a response to an environment, and if anyone is going to sit in judgment on it, it isn't me or you.

It's not at all clear to me that you 'obviously' do listen to hip-hop, since I haven't noticed you have anything to say about it other than blanket dismissals. "Hip-hop glorifies violence" is an aesthetic judgment on par with "Dylan can't sing"--commonplace, banal and wearisome.
 

joeschmo

Well-known member
PS Since this has gotten a bit heated, which is somewhat my fault, let me just say that I enjoyed your piece on History of Violence very much.
 

DavidD

can't be stopped
K-Punk while I agree that the old "its just pop music, it doesnt have to have social significance" is oversimplifying (why CANT it have that significance?) I disagree entirely with your assumptions about what 50 Cent's social significance IS. You presume his music to be ultimately, or perhaps predominantly about GREED and I think there are so many more things going on inside his music than that!

I also think yr take on the impressionable black youths who will be convinced that greed is the way by 50 Cent is a bit condescending.
 

DavidD

can't be stopped
Melchior said:
Originally Posted by DavidD
Since when does "I dont know where kanye's coming from" = "i disagree with kanye"?


Isn't that the definition of "I don't know where kanye's coming from"?

No I dont think it is! It means "I don't have the same perspective Kanye does." This is such a manufactured beef, some reporter asked him "what do you think about what kanye said" and he said he didn't know where kanye was coming from. He's hardly flag-waving for conservatives now.

The worst part of this thread is that I know if some of you liked his music you wouldn't be so ready to be up in arms about his supposed conservatism. (not speaking to k-punk here)
 

bassnation

the abyss
k-punk said:
(Does the same logic hold for white people, I wonder? Is it beholden on the poor white proletariat or sub-proletariat to ensure they make as much money as possible?)

they aren't taught the rules of the game, full stop.

i don't think it would be wrong for them to want the same lives as the middle and upper classes, which brings me to this point:

k-punk said:
As for the sad Oedipal fantasy of 'waving capital in the face of the oppressor'

yeah, but its funny how the acquistion of money means nothing (and you can have contempt for others for thinking it does) when you've never wanted for anything yourself. what are people supposed to do while they wait for the revolution?
 

DavidD

can't be stopped
Maybe you guys should join this protest

g-unot10.jpg


g-unot2.jpg
 

owen

Well-known member
for the record, i really really like 'in da club'

DavidD said:
You presume his music to be ultimately, or perhaps predominantly about GREED and I think there are so many more things going on inside his music than that!

I also think yr take on the impressionable black youths who will be convinced that greed is the way by 50 Cent is a bit condescending.

sure, obviously the 'greed' of 50 cent is qualitatively different from the 'greed' of say, donald trump (am thinking here of gary younge's very astute comparison of the relative blingness and prison sentences of lil' kim and martha stewart). the point though surely is that hip hop doesn't have to (and hasn't always) merely invert, in a more grotesque form, the values of the status quo- it's actually capable of articulating some kind of alternative. and 50 is only one of the most obvious examples of its current refusal to do so

(and also maybe of the ultimate bankruptcy of finally 'making it'- all that unimaginable suffering (ie the much mythologised and fetishised bullet wounds) followed by equally unimaginable success-- and what you end up with is that blank, featureless drawl- surely the way 50 drones through something like 'candy shop' is as good an advert against late capital as michael jackson's face...)
 

DavidD

can't be stopped
See I don't think that 50 cent is ONLY inverting the status quo. His success, his intentions, the interpretations of his music by his many fans across huge demographic divides...to me it's so much more complicated than simply dismissing his music as a boring inverse of the boring status quo.

Further, "Hate it or Love It" or "How We Do," are great 50 singles (those might as well be 50 singles anyway) and they have as much to do with the bankrupcy of late capitalism as "Candy Shop." Reading a single meaning into any of these songs seems like a trap that doesnt explain the songs' successes, and suggesting that they are symbols of some greater political ideology is an incredibly limiting interpretation.
 

owen

Well-known member
DavidD said:
Reading a single meaning into any of these songs seems like a trap that doesnt explain the songs' successes, and suggesting that they are symbols of some greater political ideology is an incredibly limiting interpretation.

i wouldn't dispute whether those records are bangers or no, but really, what other 'meaning' (not a very helpful phrase) is there here? i'd be genuinely interested if you could elaborate on this- it's all sex money guns and so forth as far as i can hear, and without even the queasy gleefulness that spins on those old chestnuts once had.
 

DavidD

can't be stopped
So you want a text to work from. How many interpretations of these lyrics are there? Consider how differently these lyrics would be heard by different people, different generations, how performance effects the 'meaning,' i.e. tone of sarcasm or regret or wistfulness. Consider how many people assumed "Born in the U.S.A." was a patriotic anthem. Consider whether this is a black-and-white endorsement of greed. Consider whether it matters if 50 intends it as an endorsement of greed or not, or if its interpreted that way and he DOESN'T intend that meaning, or if he even knows what he intends. Consider the context of the listener's familiarity with the rest of 50's catalogue; do they just know the singles? If so, isn't it likely many of those people don't have a particular interest in his values system as much as the beats he raps on? If they are aware of more of his music, does that affect the way they interpret each successive song? etc.

Coming up I was confused
My mama kissing a girl
Confusion occurs
Coming up in a cold world
Daddy aint around
Probably out committing felonies
My favorite rapper used to sing
Check, check out my melody
I wanna live good so shit I sell dope
For a four-finger ring
One of them gold ropes
Nana told me if I passed I get a sheep skin coat
If I could move a few packs
I get the hat
Now that'll be dope
Tossed and turn in my sleep that night
Woke up the next morning
Niggaz done stole my bike
Different day, same shit
Ain't nothing good in the hood
I run away from this bitch
And never come back if I could

[Chorus]
[50 Cent]
Hate it or love it the under dog's on top
And I'm gon shine homie until my heart stop

[The Game]
Go'head'n envy me
I'm rap's MVP
And I ain't going no where
So you can get to know me
 
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