droid

Well-known member
Probably not the worst assumption actually. He was certainly implicated with at least one intelligence agency, maybe more.
 

luka

Well-known member
It may very well be true actually, but at the same time it's reasonable to ascribe the instinct which immediately decides he must be MOSSAD (as opposed to CIA or whatever) is anti-Semitic. Which of course is why I ascribed it to Oliver.
 

luka

Well-known member
Again, I want to reiterate that there is a kind of truth, possibly but not necessarily a literal truth, in the belief that the elite are a satanic child sacrificing secret cult. If it is not conscious allegiance to dark gods then it is an unconscious one, it is the mythical mirror to their acts on the mundane plane. As I've said before this dual nature is described in the films eyes wide shut and in metropolis where the factory is also moloch.
 

luka

Well-known member
I'm not at all opposed to the idea that evil exists as an active force in the world. I don't at all think that it is an unsophisticated or unsupported point of view. That evil can possess and work through through individuals and groups.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
The history of the Satanic abuse conspiracy theory stuff is pretty interesting. I went to a series of talks on it last year, organised by Treadwells (whole thing is online). It seems to have largely been driven by a small group of therapists IIRC. A lot of the same players resurfaced around the Saville stuff - which partly explains why he was so allegedly prolific, in that a lot of it is just straight fiction or fantasy but the national mood was such that these claims weren't viewed critically.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Satanic child abuse actually overshadowed my early meetings with Jon. There's not many people I can say that about.
 

droid

Well-known member
I just find the idea that 'satanic' as suggested to be the height of evil ludicrous. Christianity itself is predicated on child sacrifice and its history is overflowing with atrocity, plenty to worship there.

We've seen the giant owl and the rest of the bohemian grove nonsense. There's no higher truth involved - its just bored rich pricks playing dress up, inventing a self justifying mythos. Dont colour in the cartoon.
 

luka

Well-known member
I think there is a sense in which child abuse and in particular organised child abuse is always satanic by default.
 

luka

Well-known member
I think droid that you are missing the point. It's not something I'm going to argue about, it's something I am explaining for those who can understand it.

Equally, unlike you, I do think that Epstein's trial had every chance of causing serious disruption to the power structure. I think the 'suicide' indicates as much. I think that it even had the potential to cause permanent damage. This was a real crisis point as I think singularities can be. Switch points on the rails of history.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
I'm not at all opposed to the idea that evil exists as an active force in the world. I don't at all think that it is an unsophisticated or unsupported point of view. That evil can possess and work through through individuals and groups.

It definitely does - I would see it as an internal struggle for hearts and minds, operating through individual trauma (and I would reckon that a lot of the people we are talking about are themselves extremely traumatised - perhaps not always in the most obvious way). Do you try to supercede your trauma, or do you just let yourself go to its darkest recesses - and that enquiry becomes ever more urgent, the more power you have and the more that you can act with virtual impunity.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I think droid that you are missing the point. It's not something I'm going to argue about, it's something I am explaining for those who can understand it.

.

Hmmm... .I don't agree that you're explaining. I think you're essentially applying a poetic sensibility to the events, which is what you do.
 

droid

Well-known member
Equally, unlike you, I do think that Epstein's trial had every chance of causing serious disruption to the power structure. I think the 'suicide' indicates as much. I think that it even had the potential to cause permanent damage. This was a real crisis point as I think singularities can be. Switch points on the rails of history.

No, I agree with that. I think it may have ended up with authorities being forced to imprison or sanction a shitoad of very powerful people or risk the collapse of one of the major pillars of illusion in liberal democratic society. Its not unlike multiple scandals throughout history in that regard.

However, I don't think it would have disrupted an 'evil' elite multi-dimensional satanic plot.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
A problem with the more poetic interpretation of events is I think it can often reify pre-existing prejudices and ideological blindspots, anti-semitism being the obvious one when this stuff is applied to politics. The "blood libel" seems very alive to me and animating some cases/projections of abuse.
 

luka

Well-known member
Well naturally that depends on whether you conceive of a multi dimensional reality or wish to flatten it out onto a single plane. Ultimately it's probably not all that important. It's just about conceptualisation of forces and events.
 

luka

Well-known member
A problem with the more poetic interpretation of events is I think it can often reify pre-existing prejudices and ideological blindspots, anti-semitism being the obvious one when this stuff is applied to politics. The "blood libel" seems very alive to me and animating some cases/projections of abuse.

You don't need a poetic sensibility for that Danny it exists everywhere, as much in your reductive universe as in mine.
 

luka

Well-known member
An insistence on the most banal explanations will not protect anyone from racism and the irrational. Richard Dawkins is a good example of this. To deflate isn't to inoculate yourself from prejudice and fear.
 
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