luka

Well-known member
What do you suggest? More doom porn? That clearly ain't working either is it? I don't think things getting worse, which presumably they will, is going to lead to the kind of changes yoy want to see. Quite the opposite.
 

droid

Well-known member
I think we're talking at cross purposes. Im anti-doomer.

I agree that the way to fight back is with a new (old) myth, a myth of collective struggle against evil, of self sacrifice against greed, of renewal against decay. A myth based in reality and not fantasy.
 

droid

Well-known member
And from a political, psychological and sociological perspective, such a collection of symbols should be successful.

But the problem remains the same. The right has not historically won because they have the best myths or they are the best propagandists, though that is a factor.

They win because they have the money and the guns.
 

Leo

Well-known member
as discussed at the start of this thread, people have long gravitated towards conspiracy theories out of a need to find some sort of order and reasons behind the unbelievable and/or horrific aspects of life. maybe it's part of 2010s troll culture, but it seems like a growing aspect is schadenfreude: there's a mean-spiritedness of social media and online culture that embraces conspiracies as a vehicle for humiliating their opposing tribe.
 

luka

Well-known member
There's nothing wrong with looking for order, meaning, patterns, motives. It's not something we are supposed to grow out of. There is an overrealiance, or an over investment on magical solutions though which is why I wasn't impressed by the democrats focus on 'Russiagate'. This desperation to magically change the nature of reality is very prevalent on the American 'left.'
 

Leo

Well-known member
there's abundant evidence that Russia interfered with the 2016 US presidential election. you could say many democrats and media outlets went overboard in theories about the level of Russian genius behind it, and the role it played in getting trump elected.
 

droid

Well-known member
Also, if the positions had been reversed the republicans would have burned the country down and fomented a coup with far less evidence. The combination of a bizarrely officious and pedantic investigator and spineless democrats meant that didn't happen.

That said, the liberal faith in authority figures fixing everything is a type of magical thinking, no question.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There's nothing wrong with looking for order, meaning, patterns, motives. It's not something we are supposed to grow out of. There is an overrealiance, or an over investment on magical solutions though which is why I wasn't impressed by the democrats focus on 'Russiagate'. This desperation to magically change the nature of reality is very prevalent on the American 'left.'

But as Leo says, there's no question of whether Russia interfered with the 2016 election. There's tons of evidence. It's just that those who orchestrated it were clever enough not to leave a traceable paper trail implicating Trump himself.

And it seems to me that it was very much people in the centre, or at least on the centre-left, who were disappointed by the outcome of the Mueller investigation (i.e. that it cleared Trump of the *central* charge of collusion with the Russian state, even while it made clear that if he were not currently president, he'd very likely be on trial for a host of other serious charges). And it was people on the left who were amused or even triumphant about this. Disregarding the minority of weirdos who actively support Putin, I do have to wonder if they felt it instead as a vindication that Americans deserve their awful president simply because most of them are awful people. The socialist snobbery thing you mentioned in another thread.
 

version

Well-known member
Disregarding the minority of weirdos who actively support Putin, I do have to wonder if they felt it instead as a vindication that Americans deserve their awful president simply because most of them are awful people. The socialist snobbery thing you mentioned in another thread.

I was under the impression that it was down to their opposition to neoliberalism.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I was under the impression that it was down to their opposition to neoliberalism.

How do you mean? In that Russia isn't neoliberal? Maybe so, but I don't see that that kind of oligarchic capitalism is at all preferable from a leftist POV.
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
maybe it's part of 2010s troll culture, but it seems like a growing aspect is schadenfreude: there's a mean-spiritedness of social media and online culture that embraces conspiracies as a vehicle for humiliating their opposing tribe.

I was just thinking about that yesterday. There was a time when the mainstream internet was relatively 'nice.' Wonder how it came to be.
 

version

Well-known member
How do you mean? In that Russia isn't neoliberal? Maybe so, but I don't see that that kind of oligarchic capitalism is at all preferable from a leftist POV.

I mean in the sense that they appear to see anything which puts a dent in the neoliberal order as a positive and view the Dems and the centre as part of the problem.
 

Leo

Well-known member
I mean in the sense that they appear to see anything which puts a dent in the neoliberal order as a positive and view the Dems and the centre as part of the problem.

ironically, it's historically been republicans who have were the proactive global pro-democracy war hawks, Russians should by all rights oppose them more than democrats.

well, that at least was the case until post-2016 election, when republicans suddenly flip-flopped to believe Russian interference was a hoax and Putin should be treated better than our allies.

bizarro world.
 
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